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Are some feminists trying to make men guilty until proven innocent in rape trials?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/27/suspects-to-lose-right-to-know-accusers-identity-under-new-bill

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/27/law-for-rape-victims-could-be-amended-after-ched-evans-case-atto/

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/oct/27/law-concerning-use-of-sexual-history-in-trials-could-be-reformed

I'm a feminist in many ways, but I also strongly believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Views?

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Its scary, a girl could literally say YOU RAPED ME and it would probably Ruin your life. or at least for a long time. Especially if It got to the news even if you did not rape them.
"We need to believe all rape victims..." - Many a feminist.

What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? Hell, even if you're found innocent then you'll have had years wasted, and your name dragged through mud.

And in America, Title 9 allows people to be removed from universities or workplaces without being proved guilty at all! Only a 51% certainty...

Pretty worrying when there's a whole lot of false rape claims.
Original post by DarthRoar
"We need to believe all rape victims..." - Many a feminist.

What happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? Hell, even if you're found innocent then you'll have had years wasted, and your name dragged through mud.

And in America, Title 9 allows people to be removed from universities or workplaces without being proved guilty at all! Only a 51% certainty...

Pretty worrying when there's a whole lot of false rape claims.


In theory the same rule would apply in the U.K., your university/employer would essentially use the civil standard of 'on the balance of probabilities' (51% or greater). When it's one person's word against another you're already at 50%...

The SOA 2003 is complete mess anyway as is most of the legal precedent that it's spawned. The use of the accusers sexual history really isn't an issue, it's such a rarely used exception it doesn't even bare thinking about. I'd question whether most legal professionals/law students even know of its existence.

The focus needs to be on defining consent, fixing s.75 and 76 and making rape a gender neutral offence.


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Original post by AperfectBalance
Its scary, a girl could literally say YOU RAPED ME and it would probably Ruin your life. or at least for a long time. Especially if It got to the news even if you did not rape them.


Yeah, the backlash is gruesome. Like this for example : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3714547/Heartbroken-mother-55-teenager-hanged-false-rape-allegations-kills-anniversary-death-couldn-t-future-without-him.html
Original post by Iridocyclitis


So I am usually a "feminist" as in I think more could be done to truly make women equal. However, rape is one area that I am usually very much for men. It has been shown that it is not uncommon to wrongly accuse men of this. And it has far-reaching consequences.

However, in this scenario you just have to think a little. We are talking stranger rape. How could a woman wrongly accuse a stranger? This is actually a very good idea, because while wrong accusations happen, it is on the other hand almost guaranteed that a woman coming out and saying "I was raped", will face adversary. She will be made to feel guilty, she will be scrutinized, she will have to hear people discuss whether she was a slut, and at any rate she will have to live through the ordeal again.

This is a good move.
Reply 6
Avatar for Joep95
Joep95
19
No they push guilty even if proven innocent.
Original post by J-ved


That case was shocking wasnt it. She withdrew the allegation two weeks after making it but by then the damage was done. The only thing that will stop situations like this are to return to dual anonimity of both sides in the case.

The exact same reasons that anonimity is allowed of the alleged victim ( shame, and the vile nature of what has allegedly happened) are the same reasons anonymity should be allowed for the alleged rapist, at the very least until the trial.

The accusation of rape in our society is the conviction.
It is so if found not guilty but even more so if the alleged victim drops the case, even very early on.
An accusation will follow a person for the rest of his life unless they move and start a new one, such is the hatred of rapists.
Original post by caravaggio2
That case was shocking wasnt it. She withdrew the allegation two weeks after making it but by then the damage was done. The only thing that will stop situations like this are to return to dual anonimity of both sides in the case.

The exact same reasons that anonimity is allowed of the alleged victim ( shame, and the vile nature of what has allegedly happened) are the same reasons anonymity should be allowed for the alleged rapist, at the very least until the trial.

The accusation of rape in our society is the conviction.
It is so if found not guilty but even more so if the alleged victim drops the case, even very early on.
An accusation will follow a person for the rest of his life unless they move and start a new one, such is the hatred of rapists.


It's disgusting to see cases like this happening. Especially, if the accused isn't even guilty or proved guilty yet. As you said, their anonymity should be respected just as the accusers. A similar case happened around where I live. The person apparently tried to kill him self. In this particular case, people should know who the accuser is, so they can avoid her imo.
Reply 9
Avatar for ions
ions
15
I thought this too - I think the idea behind it was to emotionally support women who claimed they have been raped, which I agree with, but I do not agree with it being used in a legal setting. I am also a strong believer in innocent until proven guilty.
I'm a feminist, and yeah I think that it's always the right thing to do to provide support for people who make rape claims, even if there's no evidence, because if that person has been raped you will do unspeakable damage to them if you treat them like liars. However, that doesn't mean that legally we follow the "guilty until proven innocent" approach, because I don't believe that's fair.

The victim should have counselling and questioning in a setting that they are fully believed. Not only will this help them recover, but will be the most beneficial to finding out all the necessary details for the case.

If the victim are found to be lying, then I would expect they be prosecuted. But you can't find out whether or not they're lying if you ask them questions like "so what were you wearing?" "Did you lead him on?" etc. It will just stop the person from wanting to confide which will mean everyone loses out on vital information and the victim will be hurt far more.

Basically innocent until proven guilty for BOTH parties. Don't treat the victim like they're a liar from the start. Just gather the stories and information from all involved as though each is telling the truth - I would think that's beneficial to begin with at least.
Original post by Iridocyclitis


I don't see how any of these articles suggest any alteration to the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle?

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Reply 12
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mehokay
7
Original post by anarchism101
I don't see how any of these articles suggest any alteration to the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle?

Posted from TSR Mobile


I was just about to say the same thing
Those accused of child abuse or paedophillia are usually guilty before being proved innocent, and the taint often never leaves them even after their being proved innocent. I'd hate to see this nefarious trend extend to those accused of rape as well.
Original post by Iridocyclitis


Did you read the articles you posted? Did you understand them?

If so how do any of them challenge the presumption of innocence?

Completely mystifying and misleading title. You did manage to stir people up who obviously didnt read or were unable to comprehend the articles.

Well done.
Original post by AperfectBalance
Its scary, a girl could literally say YOU RAPED ME and it would probably Ruin your life. or at least for a long time. Especially if It got to the news even if you did not rape them.


https://www.buzzfeed.com/charlesclymer/5-things-more-likely-to-happen-to-you-than-being-f-fmeu

Men are 82,000x more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape.
And 11x more likely to be killed by a comet or asteroid.
Reply 16
Avatar for sdotd
sdotd
17
False claimers should be jailed for the same amount of Time the accused would have
Original post by epage
https://www.buzzfeed.com/charlesclymer/5-things-more-likely-to-happen-to-you-than-being-f-fmeu

Men are 82,000x more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape.
And 11x more likely to be killed by a comet or asteroid.


Don't use Buzzfeed.
Original post by epage
https://www.buzzfeed.com/charlesclymer/5-things-more-likely-to-happen-to-you-than-being-f-fmeu

Men are 82,000x more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of rape.
And 11x more likely to be killed by a comet or asteroid.


Well if you were falsely accused of rape and sent to prison no one would no you were falsely acussed would they? Feminists can't just make up statistics and expect to be taken seriously.
It's awful for male rape victims. Most are not taken seriously and have no place to go.
There was this mens shelter that kept getting refused funding but the owner tried to keep it going with his own money. Eventually stuff happened that meant the owner had the shut the shelter and he killed himself.

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