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Original post by The Wavefunction
Ashwin 20 wicket hauls incoming
I am already dreading that series....
Just a hilarious collapse from England - but take nothing away from Bangladesh. This is a landmark achievement and a historic, momentous occasion for that cricketing nation.
England's problems are so obvious that it would be superfluous to even list them. Suffice to say, Ashwin and Jadeja will be licking their lips at the prospect of facing these boys.
Mehedi's 13 wickets will get the headlines, and rightly so, but just look at the gulf in quality between him and England's trio of spinners.
The economy rate for England's spinners so far in this series - almost 4 an over - means they have leaked 603 runs in 161.5 overs, compared to Bangladesh's 599 in 236.4.
Bangladesh's spinners have also taken more wickets - 28, to England's 19 - at a much better average - 21.39, to England's 31.73.
In the second Test, England's spinners have leaked 4.11 runs per over, compared to Bangladesh's 2.64.
England's problems are so obvious that it would be superfluous to even list them. Suffice to say, Ashwin and Jadeja will be licking their lips at the prospect of facing these boys.
Mehedi's 13 wickets will get the headlines, and rightly so, but just look at the gulf in quality between him and England's trio of spinners.
The economy rate for England's spinners so far in this series - almost 4 an over - means they have leaked 603 runs in 161.5 overs, compared to Bangladesh's 599 in 236.4.
Bangladesh's spinners have also taken more wickets - 28, to England's 19 - at a much better average - 21.39, to England's 31.73.
In the second Test, England's spinners have leaked 4.11 runs per over, compared to Bangladesh's 2.64.
Original post by Mackay
Just a hilarious collapse from England - but take nothing away from Bangladesh. This is a landmark achievement and a historic, momentous occasion for that cricketing nation.
England's problems are so obvious that it would be superfluous to even list them. Suffice to say, Ashwin and Jadeja will be licking their lips at the prospect of facing these boys.
Mehedi's 13 wickets will get the headlines, and rightly so, but just look at the gulf in quality between him and England's trio of spinners.
The economy rate for England's spinners so far in this series - almost 4 an over - means they have leaked 603 runs in 161.5 overs, compared to Bangladesh's 599 in 236.4.
Bangladesh's spinners have also taken more wickets - 28, to England's 19 - at a much better average - 21.39, to England's 31.73.
In the second Test, England's spinners have leaked 4.11 runs per over, compared to Bangladesh's 2.64.
England's problems are so obvious that it would be superfluous to even list them. Suffice to say, Ashwin and Jadeja will be licking their lips at the prospect of facing these boys.
Mehedi's 13 wickets will get the headlines, and rightly so, but just look at the gulf in quality between him and England's trio of spinners.
The economy rate for England's spinners so far in this series - almost 4 an over - means they have leaked 603 runs in 161.5 overs, compared to Bangladesh's 599 in 236.4.
Bangladesh's spinners have also taken more wickets - 28, to England's 19 - at a much better average - 21.39, to England's 31.73.
In the second Test, England's spinners have leaked 4.11 runs per over, compared to Bangladesh's 2.64.
Fair enough, Englands spinners are somewhat weak compared to the their Subcontinent counterparts but blame also lies upon the Batsmen and their inability to play spin in the first place. Blaming the trio of spinners is petty and an easy scapegoat IMO.
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Original post by Enginerd.
Fair enough, Englands spinners are somewhat weak compared to the their Subcontinent counterparts but blame also lies upon the Batsmen and their inability to play spin in the first place. Blaming the trio of spinners is petty and an easy scapegoat IMO.
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Agreed completely... batters are more to blame than the spinners... tbh the spinners have done ok imo... considering English spinners have not been the greatest for a very long time
Original post by Enginerd.
Fair enough, Englands spinners are somewhat weak compared to the their Subcontinent counterparts but blame also lies upon the Batsmen and their inability to play spin in the first place. Blaming the trio of spinners is petty and an easy scapegoat IMO.
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Original post by wolfmoon88
Agreed completely... batters are more to blame than the spinners... tbh the spinners have done ok imo... considering English spinners have not been the greatest for a very long time
Oh don't get me wrong, the blame today lies with the batsmen, I was just pointing out what a remarkable talent Mehedi is. Mushfiqur Rahim admitted that they had deliberately omitted Mehedi for the Afghanistan ODIs last month to keep him as a secret from England.
England simply have to bring in a right-hander to replace Butler – either Haseeb Hameed to add solidity at the top, or Buttler to add flair and share the gloves.
Well done Bangladesh on a thoroughly deserved victory, we were outplayed completely.
Congratulations to Bangladesh, a fantastic achievement and you'd hope a springboard for greater success. Although the lack of opportunities to test themselves against stronger opposition might come hard to come by with the set-up of international cricket at present.
They must have feared the worst at 100/0 yet it shows their mindset they felt one wicket might bring a collapse and they took full advantage.
As noted above, Incredibly harsh to scapegoat the spinners. Moeen picked up a five for in the first innings but the ones who have played in these conditions like Cook and Root hardly delivered the game changing scores plus the poor selection of Ballance.
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They must have feared the worst at 100/0 yet it shows their mindset they felt one wicket might bring a collapse and they took full advantage.
As noted above, Incredibly harsh to scapegoat the spinners. Moeen picked up a five for in the first innings but the ones who have played in these conditions like Cook and Root hardly delivered the game changing scores plus the poor selection of Ballance.
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Original post by Mackay
Oh don't get me wrong, the blame today lies with the batsmen, I was just pointing out what a remarkable talent Mehedi is. Mushfiqur Rahim admitted that they had deliberately omitted Mehedi for the Afghanistan ODIs last month to keep him as a secret from England.
England simply have to bring in a right-hander to replace Butler – either Haseeb Hameed to add solidity at the top, or Buttler to add flair and share the gloves.
Well done Bangladesh on a thoroughly deserved victory, we were outplayed completely.
England simply have to bring in a right-hander to replace Butler – either Haseeb Hameed to add solidity at the top, or Buttler to add flair and share the gloves.
Well done Bangladesh on a thoroughly deserved victory, we were outplayed completely.
Yeah Mehedi is an amazing talent. I would definitely give Hameed a shot... Ballance is just not cutting it for me
Cook has rued the lack of a 'world class spinner' - and he's absolutely right to do so - but to lose 10 wickets in a session makes for grim viewing and reading for Cook, Bayliss and England. After all, it was only the 10th time Bangladesh have claimed all 20 wickets in a Test.
Of course, the pitches were raging bunsens and the conditions were so tough, but to put down chances in the field is very, very disappointing and the seamers and spinners both bowled far too wide and far too short at times.
Bangladesh utilised home advantage and their decision to put England in on spin-friendly pitches, whilst backfiring in Chittagong, reaped dividends today.
As George Dobell rightly says, it speaks volumes about how England are trusting to chance that their batting reinforcements are a teenager (Haseeb Hameed) who has never played Test cricket and a man (Jos Buttler) with 42 first-class runs in the year since he was dropped from the Test team.
Of course, the pitches were raging bunsens and the conditions were so tough, but to put down chances in the field is very, very disappointing and the seamers and spinners both bowled far too wide and far too short at times.
Bangladesh utilised home advantage and their decision to put England in on spin-friendly pitches, whilst backfiring in Chittagong, reaped dividends today.
As George Dobell rightly says, it speaks volumes about how England are trusting to chance that their batting reinforcements are a teenager (Haseeb Hameed) who has never played Test cricket and a man (Jos Buttler) with 42 first-class runs in the year since he was dropped from the Test team.
Elsewhere today, Pakistan end on 255-8 with Bishoo picking up a four-for for the Windies. Aslam hit 75 before getting out in ugly circumstances, and whilst his average of 44 is impressive, he needs to convert his starts. His Test best record reads: 82, 70, 90, 44, 50, 74 - and sooner or later, he needs to add a century.
He has got to double-figures nine times in 12 innings, but the Windies pinned him back after Gabriel picked up two wickets in the first over. Aslam, Younis, Misbah and Sarfraz all made fifties but WI kept them in check, as the hosts lost five wickets after tea to hand the advantage to the tourists as they look to stave off a third whitewash of the tour.
Bishoo finished with 4 for 74 as Pakistan had lost their last four wickets for 18 runs - and it could have been worse after Gabriel dismissed Azhar for a first-ball duck off his second delivery of the match, and then beat Shafiq shortly after.
Zimbabwe, meanwhile, are 88-1 with Mawoyo and Masakadza on 41 not out and 33 not out respectively, in response to SL's 537, after Tharanga carried his bat with 110 not out, and Perera added the same total on day one.
He has got to double-figures nine times in 12 innings, but the Windies pinned him back after Gabriel picked up two wickets in the first over. Aslam, Younis, Misbah and Sarfraz all made fifties but WI kept them in check, as the hosts lost five wickets after tea to hand the advantage to the tourists as they look to stave off a third whitewash of the tour.
Bishoo finished with 4 for 74 as Pakistan had lost their last four wickets for 18 runs - and it could have been worse after Gabriel dismissed Azhar for a first-ball duck off his second delivery of the match, and then beat Shafiq shortly after.
Zimbabwe, meanwhile, are 88-1 with Mawoyo and Masakadza on 41 not out and 33 not out respectively, in response to SL's 537, after Tharanga carried his bat with 110 not out, and Perera added the same total on day one.
Original post by Mackay
Oh don't get me wrong, the blame today lies with the batsmen, I was just pointing out what a remarkable talent Mehedi is. Mushfiqur Rahim admitted that they had deliberately omitted Mehedi for the Afghanistan ODIs last month to keep him as a secret from England.
England simply have to bring in a right-hander to replace Butler – either Haseeb Hameed to add solidity at the top, or Buttler to add flair and share the gloves.
Well done Bangladesh on a thoroughly deserved victory, we were outplayed completely.
England simply have to bring in a right-hander to replace Butler – either Haseeb Hameed to add solidity at the top, or Buttler to add flair and share the gloves.
Well done Bangladesh on a thoroughly deserved victory, we were outplayed completely.
Sorry, it wasn't aimed directly at yourself. Just in general I thought the spinners played as well as they could and shouldn't be blamed.
Original post by Enginerd.
Sorry, it wasn't aimed directly at yourself. Just in general I thought the spinners played as well as they could and shouldn't be blamed.
It's ridiculous that Bayliss and Cook placed all the blame on the spinners in the post-match interviews. After all, the top order whittled once again, but Cook criticised his lack of a "world-class" spin bowler, and Bayliss said they didn't get enough out of their slow armers.
The bowlers weren't responsible for the crash from 100-0 to 164 all-out.
Cook reminds me of Clarke and Ponting - and even Graeme Smith - at times. He always goes back to seam bowling, because that's where the deep quality lies for the English. But why not play two spin bowlers, then? Moeen will always play - so then it comes down to one or two out of Ansari, Batty and Rashid.
If I was India, I'd want to face Ansari and Rashid out of those three. The former has never really struck me as a Test cricketer, but his first class batting average of 30 is actually pretty impressive, and makes me feel as if the selectors are opting for Ansari over Batty because he's probably handier with the bat. If so, that's ridiculous and suggests the selectors don't trust the upper order (and judging on today's shambles, they're right not to).
Original post by Mackay
Cook has rued the lack of a 'world class spinner' - and he's absolutely right to do so - but to lose 10 wickets in a session makes for grim viewing and reading for Cook, Bayliss and England. After all, it was only the 10th time Bangladesh have claimed all 20 wickets in a Test.
Of course, the pitches were raging bunsens and the conditions were so tough, but to put down chances in the field is very, very disappointing and the seamers and spinners both bowled far too wide and far too short at times.
Bangladesh utilised home advantage and their decision to put England in on spin-friendly pitches, whilst backfiring in Chittagong, reaped dividends today.
As George Dobell rightly says, it speaks volumes about how England are trusting to chance that their batting reinforcements are a teenager (Haseeb Hameed) who has never played Test cricket and a man (Jos Buttler) with 42 first-class runs in the year since he was dropped from the Test team.
Of course, the pitches were raging bunsens and the conditions were so tough, but to put down chances in the field is very, very disappointing and the seamers and spinners both bowled far too wide and far too short at times.
Bangladesh utilised home advantage and their decision to put England in on spin-friendly pitches, whilst backfiring in Chittagong, reaped dividends today.
As George Dobell rightly says, it speaks volumes about how England are trusting to chance that their batting reinforcements are a teenager (Haseeb Hameed) who has never played Test cricket and a man (Jos Buttler) with 42 first-class runs in the year since he was dropped from the Test team.
I think this is a little unfair. The pitches provided turn but they didn't deteriorate and the bounce of the ball didn't become uneven or the cracks making it unplayable. Just that the ball could grip and spin off the surface.
Original post by Zerforax
I think this is a little unfair. The pitches provided turn but they didn't deteriorate and the bounce of the ball didn't become uneven or the cracks making it unplayable. Just that the ball could grip and spin off the surface.
Sorry, I should clarify. The reason the conditions were tough - as Cook himself has stated, admitting it was possibly the toughest conditions he has faced in Asia - is that (through a combination of the pitch and Bangladesh's spinners conventionalism) it was tough to pick the ball's flight and turn.
I wasn't having a go at Bangladesh for tailoring/doctoring the pitch or anything. I was more just pointing out the dearth in quality and experience the English have when facing mediocre spin, let alone world class spin (Ashwin and Jadeja will be having a field day next month, I imagine).
Elsewhere, Windies are well set against Pakistan, reaching 220-5. That score is altogether more impressive because WI fell to 38 for 3 by lunch.
Kraigg Brathwaite's 12th Test fifty has helped them recover, with Brathwaite and Chase partnering up for an impressive fifth-wicket stand after Wahab dismissed Johnson early on, and Amir helped get rid of Bravo with a heck of a catch.
Yasir Shah trapped Marlon Samuels plumb LBW, but Blackwood briefly led West Indies' fightback after lunch before edging it to gully off Amir, who helped chip in to remove Chase after he struck his fifty.
Zimbabwe, meanwhile, are 291-7 in reply of SL's 537 - and it could have been worse for them too, after they reached lunch six wickets down for just 174.
Lakmal dismissed the overnight batsmen Mawoyo and Masakadza before Herath and Perera showcased their spin to remove Williams and Ervine respectively, and Waller and Moor fell to the latter and Kumara, leaving Cremer unbeaten on 62 not out.
Original post by Mackay
Sorry, I should clarify. The reason the conditions were tough - as Cook himself has stated, admitting it was possibly the toughest conditions he has faced in Asia - is that (through a combination of the pitch and Bangladesh's spinners conventionalism) it was tough to pick the ball's flight and turn.
I wasn't having a go at Bangladesh for tailoring/doctoring the pitch or anything. I was more just pointing out the dearth in quality and experience the English have when facing mediocre spin, let alone world class spin (Ashwin and Jadeja will be having a field day next month, I imagine)
I wasn't having a go at Bangladesh for tailoring/doctoring the pitch or anything. I was more just pointing out the dearth in quality and experience the English have when facing mediocre spin, let alone world class spin (Ashwin and Jadeja will be having a field day next month, I imagine)
Cook just trying to blame his poor form on conditions. Him and the England management team didn't take this tour seriously with it effectively being seen as a warm-up to playing in India.
The fact a few players were rested and the lack of test cricket experience in Asia in the England batting meant they struggled.
I don't think Ashwin and Jadeja are that much better than the Bangladeshi players. Unlikely that India will prepare pitches that turn so much.
Bangladesh at home are a pretty daunting prospect for anyone now. No wonder Australia are too scared to go and play them there - especially with their Asia record.
This has been great for Bangladeshi cricket, and I'm chuffed England went, regardless of the result. We saw two very good Test matches, between two fantastically flawed sides, and it made for a great spectacle. Everybody was safe, which is the main thing, and it proves Bangladesh are open for business and will (hopefully) lead to more nations heading there to tour. And hopefully the likes of England, Australia and South Africa will offer them more opportunities to tour.
In other good news: Liam Dawson has signed up at the last minute for Rangpur Riders in the Bangladesh Premier League.
He becomes the latest English player to reject advice from the Professional Cricketers Association not to take part in the tournament for security reasons and joins former England players Ravi Bopara and Samit Patel, among others, in accepting security assurances from the Bangladesh Cricket Board.
This has been great for Bangladeshi cricket, and I'm chuffed England went, regardless of the result. We saw two very good Test matches, between two fantastically flawed sides, and it made for a great spectacle. Everybody was safe, which is the main thing, and it proves Bangladesh are open for business and will (hopefully) lead to more nations heading there to tour. And hopefully the likes of England, Australia and South Africa will offer them more opportunities to tour.
In other good news: Liam Dawson has signed up at the last minute for Rangpur Riders in the Bangladesh Premier League.
He becomes the latest English player to reject advice from the Professional Cricketers Association not to take part in the tournament for security reasons and joins former England players Ravi Bopara and Samit Patel, among others, in accepting security assurances from the Bangladesh Cricket Board.
'Great' choice of words from Cook to back his spinners ahead of what will be a long and challenging tour of India. Hardly creates confidence from them to their captain. You can only hope Saqlain's arrival and having an experienced coach might get some consistent performances out of the spinning team but clearly being made scapegoats for a dismal batting display
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As Vic Marks rightly states in the Guardian today, it is possible to argue there is the raw material there among the batsmen; it is hard to believe that applies to the spinners.
The only two to come out in credit after the Dhaka match were Moeen Ali and Gareth Batty (because he was not playing).
Now, there is talk of Jack Leach being called up. Leach claimed 65 Championship wickets during the 2016 season at an average of 21.87. No England-qualified player claimed more in Division One and, by comparison with the spinners in England's squad, Gareth Batty claimed 41 at 31.21, Adil Rashid claimed 32 at 33.84 and Zafar Ansari 22 at 31.40.
But a call-up for Leach - and even drafting in Hameed or Buttler - would require a leap of faith, especially as India will be a much harder and harsher series and experience for England to endure.
The only two to come out in credit after the Dhaka match were Moeen Ali and Gareth Batty (because he was not playing).
Now, there is talk of Jack Leach being called up. Leach claimed 65 Championship wickets during the 2016 season at an average of 21.87. No England-qualified player claimed more in Division One and, by comparison with the spinners in England's squad, Gareth Batty claimed 41 at 31.21, Adil Rashid claimed 32 at 33.84 and Zafar Ansari 22 at 31.40.
But a call-up for Leach - and even drafting in Hameed or Buttler - would require a leap of faith, especially as India will be a much harder and harsher series and experience for England to endure.
Original post by Zerforax
Cook just trying to blame his poor form on conditions. Him and the England management team didn't take this tour seriously with it effectively being seen as a warm-up to playing in India.
The fact a few players were rested and the lack of test cricket experience in Asia in the England batting meant they struggled.
I don't think Ashwin and Jadeja are that much better than the Bangladeshi players. Unlikely that India will prepare pitches that turn so much.
The fact a few players were rested and the lack of test cricket experience in Asia in the England batting meant they struggled.
I don't think Ashwin and Jadeja are that much better than the Bangladeshi players. Unlikely that India will prepare pitches that turn so much.
except that ashwin jsut became the 2nd fastest bowler in history to hit 200 wickets, basically has the best strike rate in history of all spinners after murali
anyway... for anyone that has a clue about the game, englands frailties on a turning pitch and indeed inexperience in those conditions were exposed - it was like the england of old pre- pietersen etc. surving on pitches like that against consistent spinners requires brave and swift footwork, like the sub contiental batsmen practice and i dont see that in any of the current line,
Original post by Zerforax
Cook just trying to blame his poor form on conditions. Him and the England management team didn't take this tour seriously with it effectively being seen as a warm-up to playing in India.
The fact a few players were rested and the lack of test cricket experience in Asia in the England batting meant they struggled.
I don't think Ashwin and Jadeja are that much better than the Bangladeshi players. Unlikely that India will prepare pitches that turn so much.
The fact a few players were rested and the lack of test cricket experience in Asia in the England batting meant they struggled.
I don't think Ashwin and Jadeja are that much better than the Bangladeshi players. Unlikely that India will prepare pitches that turn so much.
Original post by Chakede
except that ashwin jsut became the 2nd fastest bowler in history to hit 200 wickets, basically has the best strike rate in history of all spinners after murali
anyway... for anyone that has a clue about the game, englands frailties on a turning pitch and indeed inexperience in those conditions were exposed - it was like the england of old pre- pietersen etc. surving on pitches like that against consistent spinners requires brave and swift footwork, like the sub contiental batsmen practice and i dont see that in any of the current line,
anyway... for anyone that has a clue about the game, englands frailties on a turning pitch and indeed inexperience in those conditions were exposed - it was like the england of old pre- pietersen etc. surving on pitches like that against consistent spinners requires brave and swift footwork, like the sub contiental batsmen practice and i dont see that in any of the current line,
Yeah, agree with this. Ashwin is head and shoulders above any other spinner in the game.
In fact, despite Mehedi being an exceptional and promising youngster, you've got to say he isn't even three quarters of the player Ashwin is. Mehedi is actually quite a conventional spinner, albeit with masses of ability.
Mehedi is a conventional bowler who lofts the ball in accurately - something Rashid and Ansari lack - and spins it vigorously. He lacks a world-class googly right now, and he isn't a wizard of Ashwin, Yasir levels.
Original post by Mackay
Yeah, agree with this. Ashwin is head and shoulders above any other spinner in the game.
I disagree, I do think he is an excellent spinner but he hasn't proved his ability in non Subcontinent conditions.
Yasir, Ashwin, Mehedi are levels above the rest. Tahir is really good too.
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