Is Malia Bouattia an anti-Semite

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Reply 20

anarchism101

Original post by admonit

It makes a huge difference when you skip the words "national" and "Jewish" while defining Zionism.

I wasn't defining it, I was putting in a particular category relative to another category.

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Reply 21

admonit

Original post by anarchism101

I wasn't defining it, I was putting in a particular category relative to another category.

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What category? What Zionism, a national Jewish movement, has common with Islamism, which is pure religious ideology?

Reply 22

Antioch

The jews need to be very careful. My advice for them would be to try and discuss subjects rationally and not leap to screaming "anti-semitism" at any criticism of Israel.

Reply 23

anarchism101

Original post by admonit

What category? What Zionism, a national Jewish movement, has common with Islamism, which is pure religious ideology?

Both are political stances, in contrast to being a Jew or a Muslim, which is an apolitical religious and or ethnic identity and status.

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Reply 24

admonit

Original post by anarchism101

Both are political stances, in contrast to being a Jew or a Muslim, which is an apolitical religious and or ethnic identity and status.

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A national/religious movement and an individual status are different categories.

Reply 25

anarchism101

Original post by admonit

A national/religious movement and an individual status are different categories.

Don't see how that's fundamentally different to what I just said?

Reply 26

admonit

Original post by anarchism101

Don't see how that's fundamentally different to what I just said?

So, your answer for my question " What Zionism, a national Jewish movement, has common with Islamism, which is pure religious ideology?" is that both are movement? That's all? That's what you discussed with Ascend? :cool:

Reply 27

anarchism101

Original post by admonit

I really don't see what you're getting at, but I'll try again nonetheless:

For the purposes of the point at hand, that they are both political positions (call them movements if you want, but that's less important than the political stances), and not personal identities/statuses is the relevant similarity between the two.

Reply 28

admonit

Original post by anarchism101

I really don't see what you're getting at

You have a problem of reading your own posts?

Original post by anarchism101

Islam, like Judaism is a religion with certain legal protections from discrimination. Zionism is a political ideology. Islamism would be the political ideology if that's the distinction you're making.

But to get to the actual point, we're not just talking about two fringe extremes.

I just pointed out that your reasoning regarding Zionism is meaningless because you even don't know what is Zionism.

Reply 29

anarchism101

Original post by admonit

You have a problem of reading your own posts?

Nope, but I think it's now clear that you have failed to understand them, as it seems that from your bolding of the phrase "two fringe extremes", you think that refers to Zionism. In fact, as is obvious from both the rest of the paragraph and Ascend's previous post, it is actually referring to i) supporters of Bouattia, and ii) those denouncing Bouattia as anti-semitic.

Reply 30

admonit

Original post by anarchism101

OK, this part I apparently didn't understand. But drawing parallels between Zionism and Islamism still holds as well as your wrong definition of Zionism.

Reply 31

Implication

Original post by admonit

You have a problem of reading your own posts?

I just pointed out that your reasoning regarding Zionism is meaningless because you even don't know what is Zionism.

I could be very wrong as I've not followed aall of this discussion so far, but I believe you are latching onto a single definition of Zionism as if there is such a thing as an objectively correct definition, thereby missing a lot of the important nuance here.

I'm sure it's possible to choose a definition of Zionism such that any critique of it is necessarily anti-Semitic, but I don't see how this demonstrates that a particular critic of some conception of Zionism (Ms Bouattia in this instance) is an anti-Semite.

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Reply 32

username471863

As someone who generally sympathises with the Palestinians, I found some of Bouattia's comments to be quite troubling. When she called Birmingham University a "Zionist outpost", she perpetuated the stereotype that Jews are running the world from behind the scenes. Some people think that it's acceptable to regurgitate these stereotypes while replacing the word "Jews" with "Zionists". It is not.

So, is she an anti-Semite? I think that there is a good possibility that she is. Many a time I have seen certain people more or less condemn followers of an entire religion through a thin disguise, while picking out a few who they deem to be "good" and holding them up as a token to show that they are not bigoted. It's easy to see through such tactics.

Even more disturbing was her reaction to the motion to condemn Da'esh. She is not fit to represent a nationwide student body, IMO.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 33

anarchism101

Original post by admonit

OK, this part I apparently didn't understand. But drawing parallels between Zionism and Islamism

I didn't draw any parallels except in the sense that both are political positions, in contrast to personal identities. It wasn't even me who first made this point, Ascend implicitly did so before I even posted in the thread. I was merely clarifying what appeared to be a mistake in their wording.

still holds as well as your wrong definition of Zionism.

Again, I haven't provided any definition of Zionism. The only argument you've raised on this is that a minor semantic dispute over whether it can be called an 'ideology', because you prefer the term 'movement'.

Reply 34

username878267

No.
Just because it suits some to try and make out that any criticism of Israel is anti Semitic, (even if they deny that's what they are doing) it does not make it so.

Reply 35

anarchism101

Original post by WBZ144

As someone who generally sympathises with the Palestinians, I found some of Bouattia's comments to be quite troubling. What she called Birmingham University a "Zionist outpost", she perpetuated the stereotype that Jews are running the world from behind the scenes.

How? All she was saying was that in comparison to the majority of UK universities, Birmingham has a surprisingly large base of Zionist/pro-Israel activists.

If she'd said something like "pro-Israel" instead of "Zionist", would that change anything, in your opinion?

Reply 36

admonit

Original post by Implication

I didn't find any criticism of "conceptions of Zionism" expressed by Malia Bouattia. She just turned this word into a swear word, as often do anti-Semites and haters of Israel.

Reply 37

Antioch

Original post by Ascend

I don't know if she is antisemitic but I'm pretty sure that if someone called a particular university "something of an [Islamist/ISIS/Hamas etc.] outpost", she would be the first to cry Islamophobia.

It also doesn't help her case when rehashing that old "Zionists control the media" trope.

Define what you mean by Zionist control of the media. Murdoch's papers and news outlets dominate the British market and Murdoch is an ardent Zionist even though he isn't a jew.

Reply 38

username471863

Original post by anarchism101

If that's what she meant then she could have worded it differently. Anti-Semitism is still a major problem which is on the rise, so making statements that perpetuate stereotypes which dehumanise Jews is dangerous, especially when you're a public figure. She referred to media outlets as Zionist-led, which sounds like a statement that Anti-Semites would make about Jews, except that they would replace the word "Zionist" with "Jew". At best it was carelessly worded, which isn't OK in today's climate. At worst it was bigotry.

I used to run the Palestine Society at uni and while I do recognise that there have been unwarranted accusations of Anti-Semitism by those who wish to shut down criticism of Israeli government policy, I had to constantly keep a sharp eye on my own society and make sure that debates and criticism didn't stray into the unacceptable territory of bigotry against Jews and Israelis. Sometimes people either don't know the difference and had to be corrected or didn't want to bother learn it. Taking the old arguments against the Jewish people and replacing it with "Zionist" is both harmful and lazy.

It's like when Stephen Fry claimed he was criticising Islamism, yet ended up using wording which associated Muslims with violence. Wording is actually a great deal, and should done especially carefully when bigotry towards certain groups is a major issue.

Reply 39

username471863

Original post by Ascend

True, although I have been referred to as an "Islamo-Leftist" (whatever that is) for speaking against anti-Muslim bigotry, yet the same people who throw these words around will vehemently deny that they are bigots, even though they're just as bad as her.