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Algebraic numbers proof

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Any hints on how I can start this?? I know that algebraic numbers are those which satisfy a polynomial equaling 0 but I'm not sure how to use it here at the moment.
Original post by RDKGames
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Any hints on how I can start this?? I know that algebraic numbers are those which satisfy a polynomial equaling 0 but I'm not sure how to use it here at the moment.


Start with the definition of an algebraic number.

So, x is a root of some polynomial p(x)

How might you tweek that polynomial so that root(x) is a root?
Original post by ghostwalker
Start with the definition of an algebraic number.

So, x is a root of some polynomial p(x)

How might you tweek that polynomial so that root(x) is a root?


So a1xn+a2xn1+a3xn2+...+an1x+an=0a_1x^n+a_2x^{n-1}+a_3x^{n-2}+...+a_{n-1}x+a_n=0 is true.

Would I do the mapping xxx \mapsto \sqrt{x}? It's what I had initially but it doesn't seem rigorous enough so I dropped it, can't see anything else other than that.
Original post by RDKGames
So a1xn+a2xn1+a3xn2+...+an1x+an=0a_1x^n+a_2x^{n-1}+a_3x^{n-2}+...+a_{n-1}x+a_n=0 is true.

Would I do the mapping xxx \mapsto \sqrt{x}? It's what I had initially but it doesn't seem rigorous enough so I dropped it, can't see anything else other than that.


I suspect you're on the right lines, but I don't know what you mean by do the mapping here.
Original post by ghostwalker
I suspect you're on the right lines, but I don't know what you mean by do the mapping here.


Perhaps I worded it wrong, my mind is going blank today all over :confused:

I meant to say that I can map all x>0x>0 solutions onto their roots, so all x values transfer over to some function of itself, in this case the square root. This gives a1(x)n+a2(x)n1+...+an1(x)+an=0a_1(\sqrt{x})^n+a_{2}(\sqrt{x})^{n-1}+...+a_{n-1}(\sqrt{x})+a_n=0 which would show that x\sqrt{x} is algebraic since it satisfies the polynomial.
Original post by RDKGames
Perhaps I worded it wrong, my mind is going blank today all over :confused:

I meant to say that I can map all x>0x>0 solutions onto their roots, so all x values transfer over to some function of itself, in this case the square root. This gives a1(x)n+a2(x)n1+...+an1(x)+an=0a_1(\sqrt{x})^n+a_{2}(\sqrt{x})^{n-1}+...+a_{n-1}(\sqrt{x})+a_n=0 which would show that x\sqrt{x} is algebraic since it satisfies the polynomial.


OK, I follow you, but you've gone the wrong way - you don't know root(x) is a root of that polynomial.

Here's an example:


The simpliest polynomial with 2 as a root is:
x2=0x-2=0

The simpliest poly. with root(2) as a root is:

x22=0x^2-2=0

How do you get the latter from the former.

Got to go out now.
Reply 6
Unless I'm missing something (possible, I'm a bit thick tbh), this seems fairly straightforward.
x^n = (x^(1/2))^(2n).

Original post by RDKGames
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Any hints on how I can start this?? I know that algebraic numbers are those which satisfy a polynomial equaling 0 but I'm not sure how to use it here at the moment.
Original post by ghostwalker
OK, I follow you, but you've gone the wrong way - you don't know root(x) is a root of that polynomial.

Here's an example:


The simpliest polynomial with 2 as a root is:
x2=0x-2=0

The simpliest poly. with root(2) as a root is:

x22=0x^2-2=0

How do you get the latter from the former.

Got to go out now.


Ah so xx2x \mapsto x^2 and that gives a new polynomial with x\sqrt{x} as the root. How would this be adapted if I wanted to prove that x2x^2 is also algebraic since for this you'd have to map xx onto x\sqrt{x} but not all exponents would necessarily be integers if that happened.

Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
Unless I'm missing something (possible, I'm a bit thick tbh), this seems fairly straightforward.
x^n = (x^(1/2))^(2n).


I think that's exactly it since from that procedure you get another polynomial with root x as the solution. Can't believe something so simple evaded me so longer than it should've :s-smilie:

Thanks.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 8
If x x is algebraic then P, \exists P, a polynomial with rational coefficients s.t
a0+a1x++anxn=0 \displaystyle a_0+a_1x+\ldots +a_nx^n=0 .
So if we let x=y2 x=y^2 then it is clear that x \sqrt x solves
a0+a1y2++any2n=0 \displaystyle a_0+a_1y^2+\ldots +a_ny^{2n}=0 , and this new polynomial clearly has the same coefficients as the first, so they're rational coefficient, so x \sqrt x is algebraic. Surely.
Original post by RDKGames

I think that's exactly it since from that procedure you get another polynomial with root x as the solution. Can't believe something so simple evaded me so longer than it should've :s-smilie:


Looks like you've have it cracked now. Sorry my hints weren't hitting the mark :sad:
Obviously, this technique extends to show xr\sqrt[r]{x} is algebraic rN\forall r\in\mathbb{N}
Original post by RDKGames
Ah so xx2x \mapsto x^2 and that gives a new polynomial with x\sqrt{x} as the root. How would this be adapted if I wanted to prove that x2x^2 is also algebraic since for this you'd have to map xx onto x\sqrt{x} but not all exponents would necessarily be integers if that happened.As I understand it going the other way constructively (finding the actual poly) is quite hard.

But if x is algebraic then [Q(x):Q] is finite, therefore so is [Q(x^2):Q] so you know a poly exists without haviNg to find it.
Original post by DFranklin
As I understand it going the other way constructively (finding the actual poly) is quite hard.

But if x is algebraic then [Q(x):Q] is finite, therefore so is [Q(x^2):Q] so you know a poly exists without haviNg to find it.


Does this approach fully prove it?? It is not finding any particular polynomials but it turned out more long-winded than I thought it would be. Thanks!


Original post by RDKGames
Does this approach fully prove it?? It is not finding any particular polynomials but it turned out more long-winded than I thought it would be. Thanks!

...



Couldn't this all by replaced by:

Since xx is algebraic, by definition there exists a nonzero polynomial P(t)P(t) with rational coefficients such that P(x)=0P(x)=0. Now consider the polynomial Q(t)=P(t2)Q(t)=P(t^2). This is clearly also nonzero with rational coefficients, and Q(x)=P((x)2)=P(x)=0Q(\sqrt x)=P((\sqrt x)^2)=P(x)=0, so x\sqrt x is a root of Q(t)Q(t) and we're done.

Pretty sure this was what others were getting at.

EDIT: Oh I see you're going the other way here. Well anyway here's a proof of the original way lol.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by RDKGames
Does this approach fully prove it?? It is not finding any particular polynomials but it turned out more long-winded than I thought it would be. Thanks!Looks OK. My feeling that it was hard came from the more general:

"Given algebraic x, y, with p(x) = 0 and q(y) = 0, find a polynomial r with r(xy) = 0".

I did suspect it wouldn't be quite so bad if you forced x = y.

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