If the UK was judged by eurosceptic standards

The UK is the undemocratic union which permits the subjugation of Wales and Scotland under English rule and prevents Wales and Scotland being self governing democracies able to achieve their own national self interest e.g. Control over their borders and monetary policy. The UK is nominally ruled by an anti democratic monarch who receives millions of funding from the various peoples of Britain who pay millions to fund her lavish lifestyle as well as a cartel of UKcrats usually through lobbying from corrupt mega corporations.

This undemocratic gravy train in which the entirety of the establishment supports all adhere to the 'UK Project' and launch an endless campaign against real British patriots. UKcrats like the undemocratic Theresa May who the people of Wales and Scotland have never voted for think they have the right to tell the peoples of Britain what to do? Who do Uk think you are kidding Mrs May!?

We love Britain, not the corrupt anti democratic UK. We don't want to be a cross on somebody else's flag (Wales doesn't even get anything and their flag is awesome !)

Under the UK system anyone anywhere in the UK can move from one part to the other with no ID checks at all and have a right to live permanently and claim benefits regardless of skill or criminal status.

It's one big super schengen where Islamist hate preachers can come in their thousands willy nilly from Bradford to Llanelli. We support sensible border patrol measures which will allow Britons to have a fair border system which give Britons the right to prioritise Canadian Doctors over often unskilled English immigration from the UKSSR and open up to the wide world and allow us to conduct our own trade deals... etc etc

Reply 1

sleepysnooze

the EU made the UK *more* undemocratic
so why would we stay in it?
just because the UK is a flawed democracy, that doesn't make it worse than the EU democracy, does it?
the EU's level of democracy was universally panned in most democratic academia.
if anything, people have to argue in favour of the EU DESPITE their absolutely shocking absence of democracy

Reply 2

niteninja1

The UK has existed for 500years and the constituent countries have the ability to show interest in leaving. The Scottish referendum and the establishment if political parties in wales Scotland and Northern Ireland

Reply 3

Davij038

Original post by sleepysnooze

the EU made the UK *more* undemocratic
so why would we stay in it?
just because the UK is a flawed democracy, that doesn't make it worse than the EU democracy, does it?

Member states can leave the EU at will. UK member states have to beg Westminster. The EU has come about democratically with sovereign parliaments agreeing to work multilaterally.

the EU's level of democracy was universally panned in most democratic academia.

Source pls

if anything, people have to argue in favour of the EU DESPITE their absolutely shocking absence of democracy

???

The paradox of the EU is that it's few areas where it isn't democratic is because it is undemocratic. Every time the elected European Parliament has put forward a directly elected European president it's been vetoed by the Council of Europe (heads of EU states).

Reply 4

Davij038

Original post by niteninja1

Appeal to tradition fallacy.

Reply 5

sleepysnooze

Original post by Davij038

Member states can leave the EU at will. UK member states have to beg Westminster. The EU has come about democratically with sovereign parliaments agreeing to work multilaterally.

"we can always leave"?
yeah because that's not a cop out is it
that's like telling a battered wife "you can always leave" - it doesn't make the present effects positive just because you can leave in theory -_- that doesn't JUSTIFY the wife being abused in the other example either.

also, I wasn't even talking about the lack of sovereignty in law
I was talking about the EU structure of legislation itself.
so it's funny that you've now reminded me of BOTH of these. thanks.
also, our EU agreement as a treaty (or plurality of treaties) is necessarily to LIMIT parliamentary democracy. so you're basically saying "it's democratic that we've become so undemocratic!" - you realise how odd that sounds?

Source pls

you want me to list you every single article? ***** please
if you had read it you wouldn't even be asking
what remain campaigner, for instance, justifies staying in the EU because it is democratic? :lol:

****in' none.

???

The paradox of the EU is that it's few areas where it isn't democratic is because it is undemocratic. Every time the elected European Parliament has put forward a directly elected European president it's been vetoed by the Council of Europe (heads of EU states).

and how much influence did the UK practice? how decisive have we been? how decisive would we EVER have been? if "not at all decisive", then how is that good for us?

Reply 6

Jammy Duel

Original post by Davij038

Appeal to tradition fallacy.

It isn't actually, but I guess saying that is easier than trying to tackle the point raised, eh?

Reply 7

Davij038

Original post by sleepysnooze

****in' none.

???

and how much influence did the UK practice? how decisive have we been? how decisive would we EVER have been? if "not at all decisive", then how is that good for us?

You people have such a victim complex don't you? We're not victims we're willing participants.

The democratic deficit is a myth: see for instance :

http://www.princeton.edu/~amoravcs/library/myth_european.pdf

If you want to use the marriage analogy it's a bloke getting married and then getting the hump that he can't have sex with other women and he can get a better deal elsewhere.

Remain focussed on the economy because that was someday what was their strong point just like Leave focussed so heavily on immigration

I believe you've just highlighted the paradox of democracy- can you vote for anything under a democracy and if not us it really a democracy?

We were very veto happy in the EU so quite successful in terms of our influence. We did lose more in recent years but that was still only about 12% of the time and that may be for comparatively minor measures.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

Reply 8

Davij038

Original post by Jammy Duel

It isn't actually, but I guess saying that is easier than trying to tackle the point raised, eh?

How isn't it?

Reply 9

Jammy Duel

Original post by Davij038

How isn't it?

Because it isn't actually anything to be good, let's forget about the tradition being used to justify the position. It merely states a fact (not quite correctly though).

Your entire argument, or at least the vast majority, is reliant on equating a supranational entity to a state.

Reply 10

jape

Original post by Davij038

The UK is the undemocratic union which permits the subjugation of Wales and Scotland under English rule

Not even halfway through the first sentence and my bull**** alarm is deafening.

Reply 11

L i b

Original post by Davij038

Member states can leave the EU at will. UK member states have to beg Westminster. The EU has come about democratically with sovereign parliaments agreeing to work multilaterally.

The UK doesn't have member-states. It has devolved and local authorities within a unitary state.

You seem to be confusing historic, incorporated nations with states that have sovereign responsibility for their governance.

Source pls

Most of the criticism of the EU was in the days where it governed itself more in the vein of an international organisation without significant competence to the parliament: the original "democratic deficit".

You're quite right - democratising the EU would lead to criticisms of it being federalist. Luckily the UK is a national democracy. I suppose it is a legitimate criticism of the EU to point out that it is unlikely to ever become a fully functioning democratic organisation.

Reply 12

Davij038

Original post by Jammy Duel

Your first point- the point in question was that the UK unlike the EU is five centuries old- ergo there has been a yo for longer than an EU so it is s more correct set of affairs

Point two- whilst there is room for discussion here I don't think it is controversial wherever you sit to suggest that that that the EU does have some characteristics of a state.