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Hard brexit here we come!

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Little-Englanders can have their country back whilst the rest of the world leaves them behind. I've never been so relieved to have dual-citizenship.
Original post by Captain Haddock
The problem is that it turns out 'access to' is meaningless. Pre-referendum it meant we could retain tariff-free trade without freedom of movement. What does it mean now that we've learnt we can't have that?


Look, access to essentially reflects our trading arrangements at the moment. We will be seeking full and broadest access to the single market, which is what we have as of now. Non-tariff barriers are more important than tariff barriers, especially for supply chains across the continent relying on exports to the UK. If the EU wants to be rational about this, and aim for a mutually advantageous strategic partnership between themselves and the UK, then they will ensure such barriers remain minimal.

The EU has a plethora of problems facing itself right now. The last thing it should do is raise trade barriers with its largest export market in the world. Fair enough if they do so to make a spiteful political point, and I wouldn't put it past them given their irrationality, but they will be digging their own grave.

I have been inclined to believe that this rhetoric surrounding FoM being intrinsically linked to free trade has been their reluctance to accept the result and their attempt to scare us into reconsideration. Faced with the reality of economic loss across the continent if they do not agree a comprehensive FTA with us, they should gradually come to their senses, but, again, dogma will probably convolute this. They will not be helping themselves.
Original post by Plagioclase
Little-Englanders can have their country back whilst the rest of the world leaves them behind. I've never been so relieved to have dual-citizenship.


could you elaborate upon this mix of vague impressions?

also..."little england" wasn't the only country that voted out - wales did too. are you calling them "little wales"? in fact, surely if the mentality of independence makes a country "little", then the EU should be called "the little EU" because they close themselves off from international trade via tariffs and non-tariff trade barriers (i.e. quotas, restrictive regulations, etc)? or from a completely different perspective, were all the former british colonies like india, pakistan, canada, australia, etc, becoming "little countries" just because they wanted independence from a higher legal authority? jeeeesh! in fact, why is scotland, a country that almost voted for independence *not* "little scotland" considering that fact compared to england and wales who merely wanted independence from a legal authority as opposed to one based on nationhood? this makes very little sense, doesn't it?
how is "the world" going to leave a hegemonic force like an independent UK behind? we are literally *the* most influential nation in the world in terms of diplomacy and non-military persuasion. we are also one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. why on *earth* would nations "leave us behind"? how come so many nations have already assented to their plans to freely trade with the UK? where is the logic?
why is your dual citizenship even remotely relevant? why would you leave the UK over brexit? how on earth would this have a drastic impact on your personal life? is this your claim that you are moving away simply because you feel like you don't belong in the UK any more? wow, what great democratic spirit you have. you lose one referendum and suddenly you kick your boots in and threaten to run away like a little kid does to their mum and dad?
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 43
I think this is a great opportunity to expand free trade, whereas before we were trapped in a protectionist anti-consumer racket.

Original post by Maker
Leaving the earth would make us interplanetary.


Exactly why I support Globxit.

Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil
I don't hate anyone. I don't hate anti-EU UK citizens. They're just idiots and will now pay the bill for their blind nationalism.

You cannot commit treason against the EU, but surely against the European idea, a highly valued concept in continental Europe. If pro-EU UK citizens don't feel the same way (how would you know anyway?) it just shows how shallowly anchored the European idea has been and is in the UK.



Oh, you very much tried that, but thank goodness Brussels wasn't having any of that and threw it back in your face. The speech today just showed that you have no way out anymore but the painful path of a hard exit. It's basically admitting that nothing worked out the way you planned. It was a walk of shame for wannabe dominatrix May.



You flatter yourself (something you lot like to do) if you call my casual glee an 'obsession'. I think you have much bigger things to worry about now.


How do you even fit yourself that far up your own ****?
Original post by sleepysnooze
could you elaborate upon this mix of vague impressions?

also..."little england" wasn't the only country that voted out - wales did too. are you calling them "little wales"? in fact, surely if the mentality of independence makes a country "little", then the EU should be called "the little EU" because they close themselves off from international trade via tariffs and non-tariff trade barriers (i.e. quotas, restrictive regulations, etc)? or from a completely different perspective, were all the former british colonies like india, pakistan, canada, australia, etc, becoming "little countries" just because they wanted independence from a higher legal authority? jeeeesh! in fact, why is scotland, a country that almost voted for independence *not* "little scotland" considering that fact compared to england and wales who merely wanted independence from a legal authority as opposed to one based on nationhood? this makes very little sense, doesn't it?
how is "the world" going to leave a hegemonic force like an independent UK behind? we are literally *the* most influential nation in the world in terms of diplomacy and non-military persuasion. we are also one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. why on *earth* would nations "leave us behind"? how come so many nations have already assented to their plans to freely trade with the UK? where is the logic?
why is your dual citizenship even remotely relevant? why would you leave the UK over brexit? how on earth would this have a drastic impact on your personal life? is this your claim that you are moving away simply because you feel like you don't belong in the UK any more? wow, what great democratic spirit you have. you lose one referendum and suddenly you kick your boots in and threaten to run away like a little kid does to their mum and dad?


You want to know how it affects me? Well for starters, Brexit is going to be absolutely crippling for scientific research into UK, the career I want to go into. This country's total lack of interest in helping young people makes my future prospects depressing enough without giving my chosen career a metaphorical kick in the groin. There are other countries in the world that have genuine respect for young people and those involved in research.

I've listened to democracy in this country. This country's democratic consensus appears to be one of anti-intellectualism where somebody's uninformed opinion is just as valued as the views of the experts, who have been censored by being branded as the 'filthy elite', whilst the genuine elite are continuously being given more and more power. It's too stupid for me, I've had enough - this referendum is just the tip of the iceberg. I feel absolutely no connection to the prevailing xenophobic views in this country. You can ridicule it as much as you want, but I don't feel welcome here and my European parent who has lived here for decades certainly doesn't.

I'm not trying to overturn democracy. I'm saying that the democratic decision is utterly moronic and I don't want to have to suffer just because the British population appears to have forgotten the purpose of the organ between their ears.

Could you please give me one reason why I shouldn't leave given that my future prospects would be significantly better elsewhere?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Naveed-7
Very happy with the announcement that we will be leaving the single market.
Im glad that we will be stopping large amounts of money given to EU and instead spending on our own priorities. I believe that NHS and other UK services shall recover as a result. Very happy indeed.


You realise that about a third of newly recruited nurses last year were from the EU right? And that these nurses are better than our UK trained ones? (their course is 4 years not 3 - gives them loads more skills). And that we import most of our drugs? Not to mention the impact on research.

The NHS is one of the bodies that will lose out the most from brexit.
Reply 46
Original post by shawn_o1
apparently, the pro-EU trolls would go that far.


There are also brexit racist trolls, do you see remainers undermining the brexit argument because of them?
Do you know what the largest market in the world is? Oh right it is the world. there is no real reason why everyone should not have the oppertunity for trade deals with anyone else (Within reason as there are always circumstances)
Finally the penny has dropped and they have realized the truth that there can be no Brexit whilst remaining in the single market.

There shall always be opportunity in Britain post-full on Brexit,

As for the monies saved from the EU going to the NHS and other essential services, that would be wishful thinking at best.

Free trade agreements, I doubt one will be in place for a while and one must never expect that the EU or other EU member states are stupid as no country in the world would ever get into a deal where it isn't beneficial to them.

I foresee things will be tough for a few years then after life goes on.
Original post by Plagioclase
Little-Englanders can have their country back whilst the rest of the world leaves them behind. I've never been so relieved to have dual-citizenship.


I wonder if your arrogance and snootiness also extends to Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders. Are they 'Little' because they exclude themselves from supranational political union?
Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil
You know, we don't mind. Because we are Europeans, members of the same community, and help our brothers out. If I were paying taxes in Germany I wouldn't mind some of my tax Euros going to poorer nations. And that's the difference between us and you lot - empathy, solidarity, good-will, you lack all of those things. And that's why it's good you're out and will suffer badly.


Amen.
Reply 51
I'm hoping that Boris and Hammond exert enough influence over her to get a decent set of trade deals passed. They'll be ****ed when Labour gets back in anyway (with their support consolidated in major cities on Europa and Mars).

Original post by remoaner
There are also brexit racist trolls, do you see remainers undermining the brexit argument because of them?


Yes. Constantly.
I understand what you mean with the market statements but the world is the biggest place we can create and find deals and make trade agreements. the Eu only stopped us from doing that
Original post by midnightice
Look, access to essentially reflects our trading arrangements at the moment.

No, that would be 'member of'. 'Access to' the single market describes the position of just about every country in the world. It isn't a useful term at all.


We will be seeking full and broadest access to the single market, which is what we have as of now. Non-tariff barriers are more important than tariff barriers, especially for supply chains across the continent relying on exports to the UK. If the EU wants to be rational about this, and aim for a mutually advantageous strategic partnership between themselves and the UK, then they will ensure such barriers remain minimal.

The EU has a plethora of problems facing itself right now. The last thing it should do is raise trade barriers with its largest export market in the world. Fair enough if they do so to make a spiteful political point, and I wouldn't put it past them given their irrationality, but they will be digging their own grave.

I have been inclined to believe that this rhetoric surrounding FoM being intrinsically linked to free trade has been their reluctance to accept the result and their attempt to scare us into reconsideration. Faced with the reality of economic loss across the continent if they do not agree a comprehensive FTA with us, they should gradually come to their senses, but, again, dogma will probably convolute this. They will not be helping themselves.


In other words, we almost certainly won't achieve the mythical 'tariff free trade and full border control' deal that the leavers said we would, but this is in spite of the best efforts of our brave and noble politicians and the EU are nothing but big meanies cutting off their nose to spite their face.

In reality, it was never really on the cards. FoM and free trade within the single market are, and always have been, inseparable from one another. It is a fundamental principle of the EU and there can be no exceptions. We all knew this, really. The suggestion that we could have one without the other was just another of the many lies pedaled by the leave campaign.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Naveed-7
Very happy with the announcement that we will be leaving the single market.
Im glad that we will be stopping large amounts of money given to EU and instead spending on our own priorities. I believe that NHS and other UK services shall recover as a result. Very happy indeed.


Mate how are you still clinging to that pipedream about more funds for the NHS?

It ain't happening.
Reply 55
Hard brexit means Hard brexit.
Original post by Captain Haddock
No, that would be 'member of'. 'Access to' the single market describes the position of just about every country in the world. It isn't a useful term at all.



In other words, we almost certainly won't achieve the mythical 'tariff free trade and full border control' deal that the leavers said we would, but this is in spite of the best efforts of our brave and noble politicians and the EU are nothing but big meanies cutting off their nose to spite their face.

In reality, it was never really on the cards. FoM and free trade within the single market are, and always have been, inseparable from one another. It is a fundamental principle of the EU and there can be no exceptions. We all knew this, really. The suggestion that we could have one without the other was just another of the many lies pedaled by the leave campaign.


No, it wouldn't. Aside from services, our trading arrangements are near enough identical and as free as that of CETA and the Swiss EFTA deal. You underestimate, or deliberately forget, that we have substantial bargaining chips to secure border control whilst mimicking a CETA+ arrangement, most prominently the City of London. Watch the Eurozone obliterate itself if it doesn't secure access to it.

By the way, Liechtenstein are full members of the single market (EEA) but do not participate in FoM, so your argument about the 'fundamental principal' is rubbish, just dogmatic rhetoric. Declining a comprehensive FTA agreement with their most important export market over fake 'principals' would be ridiculous. The EU doesn't have to do this out of 'friendliness', it has to do it out of sheer survival instinct.
Original post by jape
How do you even fit yourself that far up your own ****?


He's a German immigrant although he has been working here for a while so I dont see what he has to worry about
Original post by Plagioclase
You want to know how it affects me? Well for starters, Brexit is going to be absolutely crippling for scientific research into UK, the career I want to go into. This country's total lack of interest in helping young people makes my future prospects depressing enough without giving my chosen career a metaphorical kick in the groin. There are other countries in the world that have genuine respect for young people and those involved in research.


you are obviously exaggerating. the cut to spending with probably be negligible. the UK will have enough money to fund it independently and if it is so important then I don't see why our own state wouldn't fund it without the EU.
also, I find your attitude regarding the EU pretty egotistical;
"what's in it for me?" is what you're saying.
I thought you were left wing, not right wing?
think a bit more collectively then

I've listened to democracy in this country. This country's democratic consensus appears to be one of anti-intellectualism where somebody's uninformed opinion is just as valued as the views of the experts, who have been censored by being branded as the 'filthy elite', whilst the genuine elite are continuously being given more and more power.


let me ask you: how much further transfer of power to the EU is enough for us? how much of our sovereignty ought to be allocated abroad to the EU? are you really saying that the arrangement today (while we're still inside) is good? or are you saying that by pure chance we happen to be in the most ideal situation right now? you seem to be thinking "oh these anti-intellectuals, they hate the elites even if they have more knowledge" (etc) but really surely you understand that the fact that transferring more and more power to the EU means that, whether or not the national economy technically improves inside the EU (which is actually quite doubtful consider the fact that protectionism is bad economically) still doesn't mean that the people themselves overall aren't feel the effect of that? you might say immigration (as an example) improves our economy but that's not taking into account all of the negative effects.

It's too stupid for me, I've had enough - this referendum is just the tip of the iceberg. I feel absolutely no connection to the prevailing xenophobic views in this country. You can ridicule it as much as you want, but I don't feel welcome here and my European parent who has lived here for decades certainly doesn't.


I'm sorry but if you jam-pack immigrants into a relatively small nation, xenophobia is only going to get worse. isn't it. "rubbing the right's face in diversity" didn't help. it just meant that the people got a taste of the negative effects of it. you are living in a fantasy world to think that we actually better from national disintegration (which is literally what it is) or mass migration. it makes people more alienated from each other. it makes people less connected to their fellow citizens. if you stimulate the growth of foreign cultures inside a nation, the idea of "nation" diminishes. parallel communities and de facto segregation only makes things like grooming gangs and "no go areas" worse. there isn't anything wrong with immigration. mass migration, however, is problematic. it is whoring a nation out for a cheap buck. and only in a very limited sense as well seeing as wages go down via mass migration. the best way to improve international relations at the local level is to reduce migration to more manageable levels. if you push people into each other against their will, that's when you'll get more conflict. that's why, for instance, there were wars in europe only 20 years ago. forcing very different communities into one state without any kind of commonality is just asking for disaster. we are seeing that on a smaller level. forcing nations to compose their policies as a collective is going to strengthen divisions and arguments, and the EU is a great example of this. for instance, why would we have ever had a problem with poland until the mid 2000s? I mean, they send *huge* numbers of immigrants here yet they don't accept any "refugees"? and what about the fact that germany are allowed in millions of undocumented migrants who will now travel to the UK (not all of them but certainly a lot eventually)? why do you think the EU's format of collective decision making is going to be good for anybody? I mean, think also about greece - why is it a good thing for relations that we bail them out only for them to **** up *again*? seems terribly inconsiderate of them towards us. it's almost like...they don't consider us a common partner inside this structure...oh wait, because the common structure is fictitious! there is no european demos!

I'm not trying to overturn democracy. I'm saying that the democratic decision is utterly moronic and I don't want to have to suffer just because the British population appears to have forgotten the purpose of the organ between their ears.


I'm not saying you can't criticise the democratic decision but you aren't even really offering a critique

Could you please give me one reason why I shouldn't leave given that my future prospects would be significantly better elsewhere?


if you think your future prospects are better off elsewhere then by all means leave, but that is kind of brattish, isn't it. how about be a little more patriotic? don't you think your collective needs you, "comrade"? this all seems very egotistical and right wing, like I said.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 59
Original post by shawn_o1
"There can be no democractic choice against the European treaties." That is the quote by one Jean-Claude Juncker which pretty much sums up the EU in many people's eyes right now.


Better leave the UN and its undemocratic UDHR too.

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