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How Effective is Trump's "Muslim Ban"?
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Original post by Palmyra
Firstly, this doesn't really seem to be a "Muslim ban" - it doesn't include the country with the largest population of Muslims (India), nor the largest Muslim-majority country (Indonesia), nor Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or Pakistan.
Oh this is easy, the people who they don't want aren't in India, and Saudi, and Indonesia and the likes, and a out and out Muslim ban simply wouldn't work, they would just say they aren't Muslim
I don't understand the hysterical reaction to this executive order. This was one of his most publicized election promises to voters, he has a democratic mandate from the American people to issue this order.
I also find it amusing how people who have been so outraged by the use of terms such as "alternate facts" in the past week, are now disingenuously describing this order as a "Muslim ban". It is no such thing, as they well know. Nine out of the ten most populous Muslim countries are absent from the list. This is quite clearly targetted against countries where IS/AQ have an active presence.
I also find it amusing how people who have been so outraged by the use of terms such as "alternate facts" in the past week, are now disingenuously describing this order as a "Muslim ban". It is no such thing, as they well know. Nine out of the ten most populous Muslim countries are absent from the list. This is quite clearly targetted against countries where IS/AQ have an active presence.
A lot of people would appear to be mightily upset over Trumps "Muslim ban" while at the same time totally blase about the "Jew ban" operated by the majority of the Muslim states on Donalds list!
Can any of you explain why your deep compassion for the people of the world doesn't stretch to Jews?
Anyone?
Can any of you explain why your deep compassion for the people of the world doesn't stretch to Jews?
Anyone?
Original post by joe cooley
A lot of people would appear to be mightily upset over Trumps "Muslim ban" while at the same time totally blase about the "Jew ban" operated by the majority of the Muslim states on Donalds list!
Can any of you explain why your deep compassion for the people of the world doesn't stretch to Jews?
Anyone?
Can any of you explain why your deep compassion for the people of the world doesn't stretch to Jews?
Anyone?
This has already been addressed in previous pages. The ban excludes many of the countries that forbid Israelis* (not Jews - even Muslim and Druze Israelis are barred) from entering, making it the case that an Iranian Jew cannot enter the US, but a Wahhabi from Saudi Arabia can. The United States should not be vying to 'get even' with morally dubious countries like Saudi Arabia.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Hydeman
This has already been addressed in previous pages. The ban excludes many of the countries that forbid Israelis* (not Jews - even Muslim and Druze Israelis are barred) from entering. The United States should not be vying to 'get even' with morally dubious countries like Saudi Arabia.
No.
I want to know why those so outraged at Trumps Muslim ban are totally unconcerned about a similar system in place in many Muslim countries banning Jews from entering.
I agree with you that Muslim countries are generally backward shitholes who do terrible things.
I disagree with your refusal to criticize them.
You do the same regarding Islams mistreatment of gays,women, religious minorities etc.
The left's hypocrisy is breathtaking in its scale, audacity,and quite pathetic.
Original post by Hydeman
This has already been addressed in previous pages. The ban excludes many of the countries that forbid Israelis* (not Jews - even Muslim and Druze Israelis are barred) from entering, making it the case that an Iranian Jew cannot enter the US, but a Wahhabi from Saudi Arabia can. The United States should not be vying to 'get even' with morally dubious countries like Saudi Arabia.
Here here.
It's almost hard to believe this is happening.
Original post by joe cooley
No.
I want to know why those so outraged at Trumps Muslim ban are totally unconcerned about a similar system in place in many Muslim countries banning Jews from entering.
I agree with you that Muslim countries are generally backward shitholes who do terrible things.
I disagree with your refusal to criticize them.
You do the same regarding Islams mistreatment of gays,women, religious minorities etc.
The left's hypocrisy is breathtaking in its scale, audacity,and quite pathetic.
I want to know why those so outraged at Trumps Muslim ban are totally unconcerned about a similar system in place in many Muslim countries banning Jews from entering.
I agree with you that Muslim countries are generally backward shitholes who do terrible things.
I disagree with your refusal to criticize them.
You do the same regarding Islams mistreatment of gays,women, religious minorities etc.
The left's hypocrisy is breathtaking in its scale, audacity,and quite pathetic.
So we should aspire to be like countries such as Saudi Arabia?
What a terrible justification 'it's fine for Trump to ban Muslims' because other countries ban Jews.
What a fantastic race to the bottom that is.
Original post by Bornblue
So we should aspire to be like countries such as Saudi Arabia?
What a terrible justification 'it's fine for Trump to ban Muslims' because other countries ban Jews.
What a fantastic race to the bottom that is.
What a terrible justification 'it's fine for Trump to ban Muslims' because other countries ban Jews.
What a fantastic race to the bottom that is.
Wrong.
You and the rest of the Borg need to stop with the hypocrisy, if Trumps Muslim ban is wrong so is the Jew ban that many Muslim countries have.
Personally I have no problem with any sovereign state placing restrictions on who can cross their borders.
You on the other hand believe it to be wrong,Muslim countries have been doing it for decades and not a peep out of the Borg.
This entire thread is a childish digression.
The real point of the ban is to make Muslims all over the world know - that by their default support of radical islam,
- they are despised and distrusted by a vast majority of Western civilised people.
The true level of support for this is silent but runs right across western Europe - as evidenced by the fact that only two or three
( inconsequential ) politicians have spoken against it - whereas hundreds of Western European and American leaders, have said
nothing, and their silence can correctly be construed as tacit consent to Trump's slap in the face to islam
Although I dislike Nigel Farage - he has already called for a similar ban here - & Le Pen and many others on the right are starting to
echo Trump's ' we don't trust you ' message to the Islamic world.
Of course, there are a few hiccups in the implementation - a minority of muslim people either deserve all are legally entitled to
access to the USA
...but I , for one - do not understand the so called 'shock' ....
Trump was elected on this platform, it will not only play extremely well within his core support, it will widen support for
the idea of Extreme Vetting across Europe ... and his invitation to this country and to meet the Queen, will still enjoy
majority support and proceed smoothly. The rest is just hot air.
The real point of the ban is to make Muslims all over the world know - that by their default support of radical islam,
- they are despised and distrusted by a vast majority of Western civilised people.
The true level of support for this is silent but runs right across western Europe - as evidenced by the fact that only two or three
( inconsequential ) politicians have spoken against it - whereas hundreds of Western European and American leaders, have said
nothing, and their silence can correctly be construed as tacit consent to Trump's slap in the face to islam
Although I dislike Nigel Farage - he has already called for a similar ban here - & Le Pen and many others on the right are starting to
echo Trump's ' we don't trust you ' message to the Islamic world.
Of course, there are a few hiccups in the implementation - a minority of muslim people either deserve all are legally entitled to
access to the USA
...but I , for one - do not understand the so called 'shock' ....
Trump was elected on this platform, it will not only play extremely well within his core support, it will widen support for
the idea of Extreme Vetting across Europe ... and his invitation to this country and to meet the Queen, will still enjoy
majority support and proceed smoothly. The rest is just hot air.
Original post by joe cooley
Wrong.
You and the rest of the Borg need to stop with the hypocrisy, if Trumps Muslim ban is wrong so is the Jew ban that many Muslim countries have.
Personally I have no problem with any sovereign state placing restrictions on who can cross their borders.
You on the other hand believe it to be wrong,Muslim countries have been doing it for decades and not a peep out of the Borg.
You and the rest of the Borg need to stop with the hypocrisy, if Trumps Muslim ban is wrong so is the Jew ban that many Muslim countries have.
Personally I have no problem with any sovereign state placing restrictions on who can cross their borders.
You on the other hand believe it to be wrong,Muslim countries have been doing it for decades and not a peep out of the Borg.
Well said.
Original post by Palmyra
Tears are running down the cheeks of the Statue of Liberty tonight as a grand tradition of America, welcoming immigrants, that has existed since America was founded has been stomped upon.
Taking in immigrants and refugees is not only humanitarian but has also boosted our economy and created jobs decade after decade... This is one of the most backward and nasty executive orders that the president has issued.
Tears are running down the cheeks of the Statue of Liberty tonight as a grand tradition of America, welcoming immigrants, that has existed since America was founded has been stomped upon.
Taking in immigrants and refugees is not only humanitarian but has also boosted our economy and created jobs decade after decade... This is one of the most backward and nasty executive orders that the president has issued.
This guy doesn't know the history of the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790 ("This law limited naturalization to immigrants who were free white persons of good character.")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
Original post by joe cooley
Wrong.
You and the rest of the Borg need to stop with the hypocrisy, if Trumps Muslim ban is wrong so is the Jew ban that many Muslim countries have.
Personally I have no problem with any sovereign state placing restrictions on who can cross their borders.
You on the other hand believe it to be wrong,Muslim countries have been doing it for decades and not a peep out of the Borg.
You and the rest of the Borg need to stop with the hypocrisy, if Trumps Muslim ban is wrong so is the Jew ban that many Muslim countries have.
Personally I have no problem with any sovereign state placing restrictions on who can cross their borders.
You on the other hand believe it to be wrong,Muslim countries have been doing it for decades and not a peep out of the Borg.
You see that strawman over there?
No one has supported the Jewish ban, so using that as a justification for a Muslim ban is a logical fallacy.
Original post by PhysNobel
Well said.
Thank you.
While the entirety of what the left stand for is utter nonsense, their blatant hypocrisy is their most annoying trait, and needs to be challenged at every opportunity.
I am for restricting immigration from specific countries, but this ban is ridiculous. It doesn't target Pakistan and Afghanistan, whilst the last terrorist attacks in the USA were done by people who can be linked with these countries, and why Saudi Arabia is also excluded?
Moreover, it shouldn't have targeted current holders of valid visas and there should have been a white list.
Moreover, it shouldn't have targeted current holders of valid visas and there should have been a white list.
Really good to see that Trump is losing court cases over this.
A week into being President and he is already failing.
A week into being President and he is already failing.
Original post by joe cooley
I want to know why those so outraged at Trumps Muslim ban are totally unconcerned about a similar system in place in many Muslim countries banning Jews from entering.
You keep going on about Jews being barred - this is simply untrue. Saudi Arabia, for instance, not only forbids Israelis from entering, but also bars its own citizens from travelling to Israel. That's a reflection of Saudi-Israeli relations - they are two states that are hostile to each other.
As to why people protest Trump's ban - the same reason why they care more about a terrorist attack at home than one in Iraq. Additionally, you're not comparing like with like. Saudi Arabia and Israel are fairly homogenous societies with few familial or other links between their citizens. The travel ban between those two countries hasn't caused people to (potentially) never see their relatives in person again, nor caused them to fear that they may not be allowed back into their adopted country if they go on holiday abroad. That's a problem that just doesn't exist for Saudis and Israelis.
People are also outraged because it's clearly a gimmick - it doesn't bar Muslims at all, least of all from countries that are most likely to export extreme forms of Islam. It's a policy that failed almost from the moment it took effect, and by its own standards too.
I disagree with your refusal to criticize them.
You do the same regarding Islams mistreatment of gays,women, religious minorities etc.
The left's hypocrisy is breathtaking in its scale, audacity,and quite pathetic.
You do the same regarding Islams mistreatment of gays,women, religious minorities etc.
The left's hypocrisy is breathtaking in its scale, audacity,and quite pathetic.
You clearly don't know me if you think I have a particularly high opinion of the countries in question.
I don't consider myself to be part of the left or any other political movement.Original post by 0to100
"We" who? Lol you're not a politician...you're a humble tsrian...I think you're taking this too personally...
Force of habit from talking about UK immigration issues, lol.
Anyway of course any sane person is not going to blockade US citizens. That's literally unrealistic and impossible.
It's by no means impossible. They could say "Deny entry to those with passport stamps from countries XYZ", "Deny entry to those with dual citizenship from countries XYZ", etc. They might face more court challenges, yes, but in simple practical terms it's certainly possible.
But blockading migrants is not.
Again, green card holders aren't in the process of migrating to the US. They already live in the US. Sure, they originally came from elsewhere, but so did naturalised US citizens.
And yes, green card holders and Visa holders are bigger suspects! Maybe you don't know about trafficking but I do. Trafficker's biggest allies are the green card holders living abroad who set up their passports and everything.
If Trump wants the immigration system reformed, he should get legislation to reform it passed. Or at least make his order about denying grants of new green cards and visas, rather than trying to go round the law and effectively revoke legal promises the government has already made.
Original post by anarchism101
"Deny entry to those with dual citizenship from countries XYZ"
How would this be possible? I can't see how this could be known about someone unless they indicated themselves that they held another citizenship....
Original post by Hydeman
How would this be possible? I can't see how this could be known about someone unless they indicated themselves that they held another citizenship....
iirc those who acquire dual citizenship voluntarily can have their US citizenship revoked?
Original post by Hydeman
You keep going on about Jews being barred - this is simply untrue. Saudi Arabia, for instance, not only forbids Israelis from entering, but also bars its own citizens from travelling to Israel. That's a reflection of Saudi-Israeli relations - they are two states that are hostile to each other.
As to why people protest Trump's ban - the same reason why they care more about a terrorist attack at home than one in Iraq. Additionally, you're not comparing like with like. Saudi Arabia and Israel are fairly homogenous societies with few familial or other links between their citizens. The travel ban between those two countries hasn't caused people to (potentially) never see their relatives in person again, nor caused them to fear that they may not be allowed back into their adopted country if they go on holiday abroad. That's a problem that just doesn't exist for Saudis and Israelis.
People are also outraged because it's clearly a gimmick - it doesn't bar Muslims at all, least of all from countries that are most likely to export extreme forms of Islam. It's a policy that failed almost from the moment it took effect, and by its own standards too.
You clearly don't know me if you think I have a particularly high opinion of the countries in question. I don't consider myself to be part of the left or any other political movement.
As to why people protest Trump's ban - the same reason why they care more about a terrorist attack at home than one in Iraq. Additionally, you're not comparing like with like. Saudi Arabia and Israel are fairly homogenous societies with few familial or other links between their citizens. The travel ban between those two countries hasn't caused people to (potentially) never see their relatives in person again, nor caused them to fear that they may not be allowed back into their adopted country if they go on holiday abroad. That's a problem that just doesn't exist for Saudis and Israelis.
People are also outraged because it's clearly a gimmick - it doesn't bar Muslims at all, least of all from countries that are most likely to export extreme forms of Islam. It's a policy that failed almost from the moment it took effect, and by its own standards too.
You clearly don't know me if you think I have a particularly high opinion of the countries in question.
I don't consider myself to be part of the left or any other political movement.The simple truth is, if you complain about Trumps "Muslim Ban" while ignoring many Muslim states "Jew Ban" you are an hypocrite.
Correct i don't know you, but what I do know is that the left,and many who claim not to be of the left, have a pathological aversion to criticising anything to do with Islam.
I have no issue with anyone criticising Trump or his policies I am an wholehearted supporter of free speech.
The left's hypocrisy however, is unacceptable.(and the hypocrisy of those in denial too).
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