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Muslims are not terrorists!

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Reply 60
Avatar for Josb
Josb
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Original post by Ibbyyyyy
In Islam, you are only allowed to kill people during wars. That's what wars are. There were over 17,000,000 deaths in world war 1 and over 60,000,000 in world war 2. ISIS are killing people OUTSIDE of war, which is forbidden. They claim to be fighting the 'disbelievers', but you can't simply form a group and wage war on anybody you want. ISIS have killed many muslims in various attacks. In Nice, the truck driver murdered some muslim children. Is that Islamic? Here are some verses that ISIS are clearly not following:

“God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable.” Qur’an:60:8

“If they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then God hath opened no way for you (to war against them)” (4:90);

“You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56) - You can't force people into Islam.

"Indeed, Prayer prohibits immorality and wrongding" – Al Quran 29:45

"He who kills a soul unless it be (in legal punishment) for murder or for causing disorder and corruption on the earth will be as if he had killed all humankind; and he who saves a life will be as if he had saved the lives of all humankind." (Qur'an 5:32).


Except when these people "cause disorder and corruption on the earth" (as mentioned in the quote you provided). Don't you think that it is extremely vague and can include anything?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Ibbyyyyy
In Islam, you are only allowed to kill people during wars. That's what wars are. There were over 17,000,000 deaths in world war 1 and over 60,000,000 in world war 2. ISIS are killing people OUTSIDE of war, which is forbidden. They claim to be fighting the 'disbelievers', but you can't simply form a group and wage war on anybody you want. ISIS have killed many muslims in various attacks. In Nice, the truck driver murdered some muslim children. Is that Islamic? Here are some verses that ISIS are clearly not following:

“God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable.” Qur’an:60:8

“If they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then God hath opened no way for you (to war against them)” (4:90);

“You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided.” (Holy Quran/28: 56) - You can't force people into Islam.

"Indeed, Prayer prohibits immorality and wrongding" – Al Quran 29:45

"He who kills a soul unless it be (in legal punishment) for murder or for causing disorder and corruption on the earth will be as if he had killed all humankind; and he who saves a life will be as if he had saved the lives of all humankind." (Qur'an 5:32).


Really? Everybody is at war, they're at war with everybody who does not strictly adhere to their beliefs.
Original post by TURNIPLIFE
I'm not a Muslim. However, it saddens me to see unwarranted hatred towards Islam. I believe this ridiculous idea that all Muslims are terrorists stems from the fact that it easier to blame a specific group of people, rather than accepting that terrorists are individuals, who have made a personal choice. This is also why Trump's immigration policy will never be effective! The problem is that these individuals frequently use religion to justify their methods, whether it be through a religious text or a radical preacher (even if this may be a complete misinterpretation of the ideology). As has been said many a time, these individuals are the ones who give a religion a bad name. It's idealistic, but when people understand this, hopefully, more of us will be able to live in peace :smile:


No-one is saying that here. It's a common strawman used.
Original post by Jammy Duel
Really? Everybody is at war, they're at war with everybody who does not strictly adhere to their beliefs.


Simply: no, disagreement does not have to result in physical or verbal conflict. (debate is not verbal conflict, rather argument is verbal conflict)

Edit: Misread the they're as we're.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by _gcx
Simply: no, disagreement does not have to result in physical or verbal conflict. (debate is not verbal conflict, rather argument is verbal conflict)


So you're saying that ISIS don't want to recreate the world in their own image despite their clear intention to do so?

Even if you reject that statement, the UK, US, France, Turkey, are all actively involved and Germany until recently, i.e. all the main targets outside the region.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Jammy Duel
So you're saying that ISIS don't want to recreate the world in their own image despite their clear intention to do so?


I misread the original post (misread the they're as we're)

No, I am not saying that, because refuting that would be denial of the obvious truth. (Jihad)
Original post by HAnwar
Because unfortunately the media has brainwashed them into thinking that.
It's funny how a user on that thread said he had a negative view/feelings of Muslims but couldn't explain why. It also got a lot of reps.
If that isn't the definition of brainwashed then I don't know what is.

Posted from TSR Mobile


Ahhhh the "media has brainwashed you" argument. Not sure if I can really call it an argument. The mentality works like this:

•

I know of these two groups, Muslims (individuals who follow the doctrine of Islam) and terrorists (those who commit terroristic activities), both of these are voluntary associations.

•

Terrorism is often portrayed in the media since it is considered a matter of high importance, and attracts views/clicks.

•

A significant amount of these terrorist attacks are perpetrated by individuals that identify with the doctrine of Islam.

•

Ergo the individual will deduce that there must be a link, whether geographically, ideologically, or otherwise.

•

Some individuals will begin to associate Islam with terrorism, due to this.


It is true that people can be influenced by the media, but that should not be conflated with brainwashing since brainwashing implies, on some level, indoctrination, when really the problem lies within associations that are created by some. What is the media to do?
(edited 7 years ago)
A LOT of terrorists seem to shout Allahu Ackbar before blowing themselves and other people up. They don't shout, Our Father Who Art in Heaven.
Original post by Josb
Can you give me your definition for "wreaking corruption in the land"? because I think it can be pretty much anything.

ISIS simply say that their enemies are spreading corruption in the land, so it is OK to kill them.

The answer to your question is in the quote you provided...



The land refers to the land by which they are under the law of. If you 'wreak corruption of the land' it simply means break the law. Again it is referring to those laws which are punishable by death (rape, murder, ect). This could in no way be be interpreted as killing innocents for revenge would in any way be okay.

In addition to this, in Islam it also says to follow the law of your land, and to oppose it also punishable. In Britain this would mean to follow the U.K. law, and America the same, so ISIS supporters in the UK and US, who are trying to force shariah law upon the west (Islam says to invite people peacfully) and are committing these acts, are again, going against the teachings of Islam.
Reply 69
Avatar for Josb
Josb
6
Original post by bex.anne
The land refers to the land by which they are under the law of. If you 'wreak corruption of the land' it simply means break the law. Again it is referring to those laws which are punishable by death (rape, murder, ect). This could in no way be be interpreted as killing innocents for revenge would in any way be okay.


Can you back this with a quote from the Quran, or is it your personal interpretation?

Because, in the quote you provided, the punishment for murder is explicitly separated from the one for corrupting the land: "unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land". We can therefore deduce that murder is not included in "corrupting the land".

Secondly, you said "(rape, murder, etc.)", but can you provide the full list of crimes punishable by death?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Josb
Can you back this with a quote from the Quran, or is it your personal interpretation?

Because, in the quote you provided, the punishment for murder is explicitly separated from the one for corrupting the land: "unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land". We can therefore deduce that murder is not included in "corrupting the land".


It's an interpretation made by several of the most experienced Islamic scholars who have studied the Quran for many years and therefore are more qualified to make a judgement on its meaning than you and I. The fact that murder is stated means nothing, it's just one of the many things which are punishable under the land.

I really don't know where you're trying to get at with this. You're nitpicking at all the little things in my qoutes to try and find something wrong yet ignoring the bigger picture. You can clearly see that murder is forbidden in Islam, none of their acts are condoned. There is clearly no justification in the Quran for them to be doing what they are doing.
Reply 71
Avatar for Josb
Josb
6
Original post by bex.anne
It's an interpretation made by several of the most experienced Islamic scholars who have studied the Quran for many years and therefore are more qualified to make a judgement on its meaning than you and I. The fact that murder is stated means nothing, it's just one of the many things which are punishable under the land.

I really don't know where you're trying to get at with this. You're nitpicking at all the little things in my qoutes to try and find something wrong yet ignoring the bigger picture. You can clearly see that murder is forbidden in Islam, none of their acts are condoned. There is clearly no justification in the Quran for them to be doing what they are doing.

I am nitpicking because you say that killing people is forbidden, unless they have "spread corruption in the land"; this phrase is so vague that it kinda nullifies your statement, unless you could bring me a valid definition of "spreading corruption in the land" (which you haven't done).
Original post by Josb


Secondly, you said "(rape, murder, etc.)", but can you provide the full list of crimes punishable by death?


'Fasad fil-ardh'
Which is wreaking havoc in the land, and is punishable by death includes Treason/apostasy, Murder, Piracy, Rape, Adultery, Homosexual activity.

But shall we have a look at the crimes which are punishable by death in Christianity?
Murder, Adultery, Rape, Homosexuality, Sex before marriage, Treason/Apostasy, Witchcraft, Taking the lords name in vain, Cursing or disobeying a parent, Kidnapping.

If the reason you're asking about the death penalty is for the death of homosexual thing, then I have to say, Obviously I completely disagree with the death of a homosexual person. But not only Muslims believe in this, christians do too, and regardless of someones religious beliefs many people today are extremely homophobic and believe in this anyway.
(edited 7 years ago)
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
Original post by epoddoulc
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"


You got this qoute from an anti islam page, no bias at all.

This extract is from a Surah about war. There is nothing about innocent civilians being killed. This is about the opposition. Those who have willingly opted to participate in warfare. Have you ever looked into the Islamic criteria for war? Do you know what a just war is? Stop taking things out of context.
Original post by bex.anne
You got this qoute from an anti islam page, no bias at all.

This extract is from a Surah about war. There is nothing about innocent civilians being killed. This is about the opposition. Those who have willingly opted to participate in warfare. Have you ever looked into the Islamic criteria for war? Do you know what a just war is? Stop taking things out of context.



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, “Kill any Jew who falls under your power.” Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad’s men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.

Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us” The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Original post by LisaNikita
Quran 3:151 "we will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"

-ex moslem


you're still arabic though yes?
Original post by LisaNikita
Quran 3:151 "we will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"

-ex moslem


And consequently due to be stoned
Reply 78
Avatar for Josb
Josb
6
Original post by bex.anne
'Fasad fil-ardh'
Which is wreaking havoc in the land, and is punishable by death includes Treason/apostasy, Murder, Piracy, Rape, Adultery, Homosexual activity.

Well, that is a pretty long list... So it seems that killing people in peacetime is perfectly allowed in many, many cases.

Original post by bex.anne
But shall we have a look at the crimes which are punishable by death in Christianity?
Murder, Adultery, Rape, Homosexuality, Sex before marriage, Treason/Apostasy, Witchcraft, Taking the lords name in vain, Cursing or disobeying a parent, Kidnapping.

It doesn't make Islam better. And the laws in the West has evolved from Christianity, it is not based on a religious code for several centuries.

Original post by bex.anne
If the reason you're asking about the death penalty is for the death of homosexual thing, then I have to say, Obviously I completely disagree with the death of a homosexual person. But not only Muslims believe in this, christians do too, and regardless of someones religious beliefs many people today are extremely homophobic and believe in this anyway.

I'm also concerned about the death for apostasy thing, or death for adultery (really?), or death for anything since I am against the death penalty.

(Nowadays, the overwhelming majority of Western Christians do not think that gays should be killed.)
Original post by Angry Bird
you're still arabic though yes?


Arabic is a language lmao

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