Misandry and female privilege in the way we are taught to form relationships
Prevailing culture in almost every country around the world puts the burden on men to approach and propose relationships to women. A man who likes a woman has to go up to a woman and ask her out. A woman who likes a guy has to give him signals so that he comes up to her and asks her out.
Seeking approval (men) is not like being sought for approval (women). The person seeking approval has to please the one being sought for that approval. He is therefore of less worth.
This culture puts men in a vulnerable position that exposes them to rejection, whilst shielding women from rejection. This culture puts women in a position of power and control over men. In the west this culture goes so far as teaching men to bow to women when proposing to them for marriage and in some African cultures men and their friends are made to crawl on all fours when proposing to women and their families.
This is extremely subjugating and sexist towards men.
Have you ever thought about or questioned this issue? Should society start teaching women to do the hard work and approach men with the proposition for marriage or a relationship? what gender are you and what would you prefer and why?
Seeking approval (men) is not like being sought for approval (women). The person seeking approval has to please the one being sought for that approval. He is therefore of less worth.
This culture puts men in a vulnerable position that exposes them to rejection, whilst shielding women from rejection. This culture puts women in a position of power and control over men. In the west this culture goes so far as teaching men to bow to women when proposing to them for marriage and in some African cultures men and their friends are made to crawl on all fours when proposing to women and their families.
This is extremely subjugating and sexist towards men.
Have you ever thought about or questioned this issue? Should society start teaching women to do the hard work and approach men with the proposition for marriage or a relationship? what gender are you and what would you prefer and why?
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(edited 7 years ago)
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I don't think it is true anymore. Plenty of women ask men out or signal so strongly that there isn't a risk of rejection for the man.
Particularly on marriage, women are keener to get married and generally push the relationship in that direction. The one knee thing is almost always a formality. Women have usually made it clear that they will say yes by that point.
Particularly on marriage, women are keener to get married and generally push the relationship in that direction. The one knee thing is almost always a formality. Women have usually made it clear that they will say yes by that point.
Original post by Sternumator
I don't think it is true anymore. Plenty of women ask men out or signal so strongly that there isn't a risk of rejection for the man.
Particularly on marriage, women are keener to get married and generally push the relationship in that direction. The one knee thing is almost always a formality. Women have usually made it clear that they will say yes by that point.
Particularly on marriage, women are keener to get married and generally push the relationship in that direction. The one knee thing is almost always a formality. Women have usually made it clear that they will say yes by that point.
Its rare sternumator....go to the relationships section of this forum and checkout the number of threads of girls asking why guys they like and whom they feel like them back aren't asking them out.....when was the last time you saw or heard of a woman bowing to a man and asking for his hand in marriage?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by CookieButter
Its rare sternumator....go to the relationships section of this forum and checkout the number of threads of girls asking why guys they like and whom they feel like them back aren't asking them out.....when was the last time you saw or heard of a woman bowing to a man and asking for his hand in marriage?
There are loads of guys who never asks girls out either because they are scared of rejection.
As I said, the one knee thing is a formality. In most cases, women communicate their desire to get married to their partner before that. Men hold all the power in that situation. The man knows the woman will say yes and it is up to him when and if they get married. It's all in his hands.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Sternumator
There are loads of guys who never asks girls out either because they are scared of rejection.
As I said, the one knee thing is a formality. In most cases, women communicate their desire to get married to their partner before that. Men hold all the power in that situation. The man knows the woman will say yes and it is up to him when and if they get married. It's all in his hands.
As I said, the one knee thing is a formality. In most cases, women communicate their desire to get married to their partner before that. Men hold all the power in that situation. The man knows the woman will say yes and it is up to him when and if they get married. It's all in his hands.
Regardless of whether or not it is 'just a formality', it is a sexist act that subjugates men and it speaks volumes. If women were made to bow to men or crawl on all fours as a 'formality' in proposing to men we would not hear the end of it....these double standards need to stop. This sexism needs to stop....
I think that you are just trying to justify this female privilege.
As for your point regarding men being often 100% certain that they are not going to get rejected ....well that doesn't justify why they have to be exposed to rejection and women not. Why shouldn't it work the other way around? Why shouldn't we expose women to rejection in the same way?...Also, you need to realise that in many countries around the world men are taught to proposition women they do not know when they want to get married exposing them to rejection and subjugation all the time. in many countries men and boys are taught to man up and take rejection by women on the chin as if its a normal part of life......this subjugation of men and female privilege is a world wide phenomena....and women exploit this factor to their advantage.....Like I wrote in my previous comment, go to the relationship section in this forum and read the comments there....You will come across countless threads started by girls/women who are annoyed by the fact that men whom they like do not approach them despite them giving clear signals to those boys/men...Women don't want to play the male role in forming relationships because they know the disadvantages that come with this role all too well...it subjugates men...it puts women in a state of control and power over men....it exposes men to rejection...and women do not want that....In fact you'll find that in most posts women seem like they feel entitled to being approached by men....and would not even consider the idea of approaching men.
No matter how hard you try to twist this reality to make men look like they are not discriminated against you will not succeed.....It is clear sexism and female privilege.
(edited 7 years ago)
dominant menOriginal post by CookieButter
Regardless of whether or not it is 'just a formality', it is a sexist act that subjugates men and it speaks volumes. If women were made to bow to men or crawl on all fours as a 'formality' in proposing to men we would not hear the end of it....these double standards need to stop. This sexism needs to stop....
I think that you are just trying to justify this female privilege.
As for your point regarding men being often 100% certain that they are not going to get rejected ....well that doesn't justify why they have to be exposed to rejection and women not. Why shouldn't it work the other way around? Why shouldn't we expose women to rejection in the same way?...Also, you need to realise that in many countries around the world men are taught to proposition women they do not know when they want to get married exposing them to rejection and subjugation all the time. in many countries men and boys are taught to man up and take rejection by women on the chin as if its a normal part of life......this subjugation of men and female privilege is a world wide phenomena....and women exploit this factor to their advantage.....Like I wrote in my previous comment, go to the relationship section in this forum and read the comments there....You will come across countless threads started by girls/women who are annoyed by the fact that men whom they like do not approach them despite them giving clear signals to those boys/men...Women don't want to play the male role in forming relationships because they know the disadvantages that come with this role all too well...it subjugates men...it puts women in a state of control and power over men....it exposes men to rejection...and women do not want that....In fact you'll find that in most posts women seem like they feel entitled to being approached by men....and would not even consider the idea of approaching men.
No matter how hard you try to twist this reality to make men look like they are not discriminated against you will not succeed.....It is clear sexism and female privilege.
I think that you are just trying to justify this female privilege.
As for your point regarding men being often 100% certain that they are not going to get rejected ....well that doesn't justify why they have to be exposed to rejection and women not. Why shouldn't it work the other way around? Why shouldn't we expose women to rejection in the same way?...Also, you need to realise that in many countries around the world men are taught to proposition women they do not know when they want to get married exposing them to rejection and subjugation all the time. in many countries men and boys are taught to man up and take rejection by women on the chin as if its a normal part of life......this subjugation of men and female privilege is a world wide phenomena....and women exploit this factor to their advantage.....Like I wrote in my previous comment, go to the relationship section in this forum and read the comments there....You will come across countless threads started by girls/women who are annoyed by the fact that men whom they like do not approach them despite them giving clear signals to those boys/men...Women don't want to play the male role in forming relationships because they know the disadvantages that come with this role all too well...it subjugates men...it puts women in a state of control and power over men....it exposes men to rejection...and women do not want that....In fact you'll find that in most posts women seem like they feel entitled to being approached by men....and would not even consider the idea of approaching men.
No matter how hard you try to twist this reality to make men look like they are not discriminated against you will not succeed.....It is clear sexism and female privilege.
I do agree that if women were the ones bowing down, it would be seen as an outdated tradition but men are the ones in control. It's a ritual that is designed to make the woman feel she is lucky that he has chosen to ask her.
There really is no oppression in any of this. If you don't want to get down on one knee, don't. If you don't want to ask a girl out, don't. You don't have to do anything. It is up to you.
Equally, women aren't obliged to ask you out. Who is doing anything wrong in all of this? You say girls complain they are not being asked out but you are complaining on behalf of men that we don't get asked out.
Of course there are cultural norms but you don't have to follow them.
Original post by Sternumator
It's a ritual that is designed to make the woman feel she is lucky that he has chosen to ask her.
Its a ritual to make a woman feel lucky that a man has chosen to ask her???? lol!!! how so when it is the man who is seeking for her approval?!!!!!?!!!?!!!!!!!!!!!....
Your argument is so hopeless and desperate to portray women as victims when they are so obviously the main beneficiaries of this sexist culture.
Original post by Sternumator
There really is no oppression in any of this. If you don't want to get down on one knee, don't. If you don't want to ask a girl out, don't. You don't have to do anything. It is up to you.
Original post by Sternumator
I do agree that if women were the ones bowing down, it would be seen as an outdated tradition but men are the ones in control.
You call it sexism and oppression if it affects women but you dismiss it as nothing when it affects men. Do the words contradiction and double standards mean anything to you? You are a great example of a feminist. A great example of sexism and misandry.
Original post by Sternumator
Equally, women aren't obliged to ask you out. Who is doing anything wrong in all of this? You say girls complain they are not being asked out but you are complaining on behalf of men that we don't get asked out.
Of course there are cultural norms but you don't have to follow them.
Of course there are cultural norms but you don't have to follow them.
If we were to dismiss every 'culture norm' as not being sexist we would dismiss the entirety of feminist ideology. We would dismiss everything that you have written about women and power...hey, if you believe that not enough women are in power, tell them to choose to pursue fields that lead them into seats of power and control...there are no laws that are stopping them and according to you culture doesn't matter so yeah...women are not oppressed.....your argument is so contradictory and so full of holes....its not even funny.
(edited 7 years ago)
We are talking about Homo sapiens right? A sexually dimorphic species in which the males compete with each other for female attention? That similar courtship displays are found in other primates is a very inconvenient fact for gender identity warriors.
Of course, we are not entirely bound by our biology. A man is welcome to stand by the bar waiting for a woman to approach him. Those with something to offer will not have a problem. Those without... well, life is competitive. You can always use your hand.
Of course, we are not entirely bound by our biology. A man is welcome to stand by the bar waiting for a woman to approach him. Those with something to offer will not have a problem. Those without... well, life is competitive. You can always use your hand.
Original post by Quantex
We are talking about Homo sapiens right? A sexually dimorphic species in which the males compete with each other for female attention? That similar courtship displays are found in other primates is a very inconvenient fact for gender identity warriors.
Of course, we are not entirely bound by our biology. A man is welcome to stand by the bar waiting for a woman to approach him. Those with something to offer will not have a problem. Those without... well, life is competitive. You can always use your hand.
Of course, we are not entirely bound by our biology. A man is welcome to stand by the bar waiting for a woman to approach him. Those with something to offer will not have a problem. Those without... well, life is competitive. You can always use your hand.
In every thread questioning sexism against men you leave your pro-feminist, sexist, nonsensical, derogatory comments to justify the sexism and female privilege....This is going to probably fly right over your head as I do not think that you have the mental capacity to understand it, but my guess is that you have a dog in this fight...
Regardless, in what alternate reality where you taught biology where men compete over women in the human race? or are you perhaps intentionally distorting biology to get a pretext for indulging in the nonsense that you are trying to justify?.....idk.
Men do not compete with each other over women in the human race. In the human race both genders compete for the attention of the opposite gender. Stating otherwise is distorting biology and reality and stating that men are dependent on women, which adds confirmation to my original post about sexism towards men in our culture.
Stand by that bar of yours and have a look around at how women are dressed and made up....could that make up and cleavage possibly be competing for male attention? In a world like this, where both genders compete for the attention of the opposite gender ....where both genders gain mutual benefit from a relationship and where equality is essential, why do we have to adhere to a practice that exposes man to subjugation and rejection whilst denying that treatment towards women? Think about it.
(edited 7 years ago)
OP is the type to call out 'feminazis' when he is just as bad tbh.
It really isn't that deep. Most men are happy to do this, and if anything it makes the man dominant as he's at the forefront of initiating romantic contact and starting relationships.
It's human nature for males to court females.
Original post by CookieButter
This culture puts men in a vulnerable position that exposes them to rejection, whilst shielding women from rejection. This culture puts women in a position of power and control over men. In the west this culture goes so far as teaching men to bow to women when proposing to them for marriage and in some African cultures men and their friends are made to crawl on all fours when proposing to women and their families.
This is extremely subjugating and sexist towards men.
This culture puts men in a vulnerable position that exposes them to rejection, whilst shielding women from rejection. This culture puts women in a position of power and control over men. In the west this culture goes so far as teaching men to bow to women when proposing to them for marriage and in some African cultures men and their friends are made to crawl on all fours when proposing to women and their families.
This is extremely subjugating and sexist towards men.
It really isn't that deep. Most men are happy to do this, and if anything it makes the man dominant as he's at the forefront of initiating romantic contact and starting relationships.
It's human nature for males to court females.
Be charming enough to make a girl want to ask you out. 
Original post by Quantex
We are talking about Homo sapiens right? A sexually dimorphic species in which the males compete with each other for female attention? That similar courtship displays are found in other primates is a very inconvenient fact for gender identity warriors.
Of course, we are not entirely bound by our biology. A man is welcome to stand by the bar waiting for a woman to approach him. Those with something to offer will not have a problem. Those without... well, life is competitive. You can always use your hand.
Of course, we are not entirely bound by our biology. A man is welcome to stand by the bar waiting for a woman to approach him. Those with something to offer will not have a problem. Those without... well, life is competitive. You can always use your hand.
Go to South America as a gringo
Original post by yudothis
How is this comparable to say equality in the workplace?
Well, neither are a real issue, so there's that.
Though ironically, this kind of thing you are advocating, is an incredibly feminist thing to do.
Feminism in 2017 is a women's advocacy movement, which is not the same thing as a movement for equality.
Original post by CookieButter
Its a ritual to make a woman feel lucky that a man has chosen to ask her???? lol!!! how so when it is the man who is seeking for her approval?!!!!!?!!!?!!!!!!!!!!!....
Your argument is so hopeless and desperate to portray women as victims when they are so obviously the main beneficiaries of this sexist culture.
You call it sexism and oppression if it affects women but you dismiss it as nothing when it affects men. Do the words contradiction and double standards mean anything to you? You are a great example of a feminist. A great example of sexism and misandry.
If we were to dismiss every 'culture norm' as not being sexist we would dismiss the entirety of feminist ideology. We would dismiss everything that you have written about women and power...hey, if you believe that not enough women are in power, tell them to choose to pursue fields that lead them into seats of power and control...there are no laws that are stopping them and according to you culture doesn't matter so yeah...women are not oppressed.....your argument is so contradictory and so full of holes....its not even funny.
Your argument is so hopeless and desperate to portray women as victims when they are so obviously the main beneficiaries of this sexist culture.
You call it sexism and oppression if it affects women but you dismiss it as nothing when it affects men. Do the words contradiction and double standards mean anything to you? You are a great example of a feminist. A great example of sexism and misandry.
If we were to dismiss every 'culture norm' as not being sexist we would dismiss the entirety of feminist ideology. We would dismiss everything that you have written about women and power...hey, if you believe that not enough women are in power, tell them to choose to pursue fields that lead them into seats of power and control...there are no laws that are stopping them and according to you culture doesn't matter so yeah...women are not oppressed.....your argument is so contradictory and so full of holes....its not even funny.
I don't think women are victims and I don't think men are either.
I don't think men and women are the same. They have different strengths and have different desires in life. I think opportunity is more important than outcomes.
I don't believe there are too few women in positions of power. As long as women have equal opportunity to pursue that as men, that is enough for me. If a woman wants to be a stay at home mum, I don't see a problem with that.
Obviously, the desire to be a SAHM is influenced by culture but if people are happy doing what they want, what is the issue?
Live your life in a way that makes you happy. If you don't want to get down on one knee, don't but the men who choose to don't need protecting.
*PATRIARCHY KLAXON*
It's patriarchy. The patriarchy says that men pick a woman to be their wife, that women are to present themselves the best so that a man will want them. In general, you used to get rejected by the woman's father, or oldest brother.
Of course, since it was realised that women are people, the woman has been able to say no to the man so a beginning to this breakdown of the patriarchal idea of dating and marriage has made it seem like there's female privilege in the situation because we've still got this patriarchal idea of wooing and being a gentleman along with the equal notion that the woman gets to make her own choice.
We've got two options, we go back to full on patriarchy and you go back to having to win over her dad and her not being a real person (keep reading, this isn't going to happen) or we ditch all of the traditional patriarchal ideas and have a completely equal society in which anyone feels they can approach everyone else and everyone has the choice to say no and everyone faces rejection etc.
Guess which one feminists are working towards.
It's patriarchy. The patriarchy says that men pick a woman to be their wife, that women are to present themselves the best so that a man will want them. In general, you used to get rejected by the woman's father, or oldest brother.
Of course, since it was realised that women are people, the woman has been able to say no to the man so a beginning to this breakdown of the patriarchal idea of dating and marriage has made it seem like there's female privilege in the situation because we've still got this patriarchal idea of wooing and being a gentleman along with the equal notion that the woman gets to make her own choice.
We've got two options, we go back to full on patriarchy and you go back to having to win over her dad and her not being a real person (keep reading, this isn't going to happen) or we ditch all of the traditional patriarchal ideas and have a completely equal society in which anyone feels they can approach everyone else and everyone has the choice to say no and everyone faces rejection etc.
Guess which one feminists are working towards.
Original post by minimarshmallow
Guess which one feminists are working towards.
Guess which one feminists are working towards.
I don't think many opponents know what feminists actually want. Their idea of "feminism today = 3rd wave feminism = total crap based on a few examples I have heard of". Just on this thread someone made the very same suggestion you did without realizing that is exactly what feminism aims for...
*Might* be a biological/evolutionary basis for males jumping through hoops to try and impress females and females being selective...
https://www.biologycorner.com/worksheets/articles/(article)how_females_choose.html
https://www.biologycorner.com/worksheets/articles/(article)how_females_choose.html
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