This discussion is now closed.

Check out other Related discussions

Please help, Muslims will probably only understand

Immaturity comes from those who use childish arguments to justify unsupported beliefs, such as "Allah knows best".

Yeah we get it, you hate Islam and its followers. No problem, I don't expect any respect. I was thinking about the OP because her thread is just ruined now but fine carry on.

Reply 381

Josb

6

Original post by h333

Yeah we get it, you hate Islam and its followers. No problem, I don't expect any respect. I was thinking about the OP because her thread is just ruined now but fine carry on.

OP doesn't care anymore.

You accuse me of hating Muslims, but what should I say when Miszshortie said that non-Muslims cannot be righteous?

Muslims are also very immature when they accuse other people of hating Muslims just because they ask them to justify their beliefs.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 382

QE2

20

Original post by AishaGirl

I do know what Allah swt knows. I do not believe your sealed heart cannot be unsealed if you genuinely search for him. You're misunderstanding, your path is written before hand as in god knows what you will do before you know but your free will is what will determine where you end up.

If god knows that outcome A will happen, it is not possible for me to choose outcome B instead. Once Allah used his infallible omniscience to fix a future event (Qadr/Preserved Tablet), that event is inevitable. It must happen. Free will has been removed.

You may well one of those that ends up in the hellfire feeling sorry for yourself but that option is not set in stone. I imagine it to be like a mouse in a maze with food and poison. You as the creator of the maze know that the mouse will either find the food or the poison, but which one the mouse decides to eat is solely down to the mouse.

Absolutely not!
This analogy shows god not knowing the outcome of an event! This fundamentally contradicts the basis of Islam! Allah knows if the mouse will eat the poison or the food. And he knows exactly which route it will take. Your analogy has god merely as an observer.

Can you please not quote me with such language...

Ha! I'd forgotten about the Bukhari hadith that describes houri as having transparent skin and bones so that the marrow can be seen!
What do you think about that? Why do you think that is supposed to sound attaractive?

Reply 383

EternalLight

2

Original post by QE2

Absolutely not!
This analogy shows god not knowing the outcome of an event! This fundamentally contradicts the basis of Islam! Allah knows if the mouse will eat the poison or the food. And he knows exactly which route it will take. Your analogy has god merely as an observer.

Read what I said again. Allah swt knows the outcome because he knows what you will pick, but the choice you make is yours, Allah swt does not make you commit sin. If knows if you will or not, but he does not make you.

Sorry if I didn't explain it well enough, I'm pretty terrible at analogies.

Reply 384

QE2

20

Original post by h333

Yeah we get it, you hate Islam and its followers. No problem, I don't expect any respect.

And you hate disbelievers, but you don't see me crying about it. I just challenge you to justify your belief.
If you can't, fair enough. I've tried to find logical, reasonable and evidential reason for justifying belief in Islam, and I can't - and I'm not burdened by indoctrination and confirmation bias.

Reply 385

QE2

20

Original post by AishaGirl

Read what I said again. Allah swt knows the outcome because he knows what you will pick, but the choice you make is yours, Allah swt does not make you commit sin. If knows if you will or not, but he does not make you.

Sorry if I didn't explain it well enough, I'm pretty terrible at analogies.

The problem here is with the concept of infallible omniscience and predetermination (Qadr).
Once god has predetermined/decreed/forseen an action, that action must happen. The ability for us to pick any other action has been removed. Now obviously, we are not aware of this, we still have the illusion of free will, but it is impossible for us to pick any other choice than the one god knows we will pick. If we could, it would disprove god's omniscience.

Example.
God knows I will order chicken for dinner tonight.
When I come to place my order, can I choose anything else on the menu?
I am reading the menu, I like the look of many things. Can I order steak, or fish?
Of course not. Allah knows I will order chicken, so I cannot order anything else. I have no free will in what I order at the moment of ordering.
Obviously, no one is physically forcing me to order chicken. I'm not trying to order steak but the words come out as chicken (that would be somewhat disconcerting!). The very intention to order chicken has already been fixed by Allah. I can no more decide to not order chicken that I can decide to stop my hair from growing.

Reply 386

Plantagenet Crown

20

Original post by AishaGirl

It is not our job to think of what god does and why. His thinking is above ours.

The entire point of life is to test you, so start revising.

Life can't be a test if God knows everything because the very concept of a test depends on not knowing the outcome in advance.

Original post by Zamestaneh

If someone is shouting to you over and over warning of a fire and then you put your fingers in your ears and close your eyes, then as the fire is closer to you, the one shouting at you gives you ear buds, you only have yourself to blame for getting burnt.

Well no, because it's Allah who has set the seal on our hearts and minds so it is him who is entirely to blame.

Reply 387

EternalLight

2

Original post by QE2

Example.
God knows I will order chicken for dinner tonight.
When I come to place my order, can I choose anything else on the menu?
I am reading the menu, I like the look of many things. Can I order steak, or fish?
Of course not. Allah knows I will order chicken, so I cannot order anything else. I have no free will in what I order at the moment of ordering.
Obviously, no one is physically forcing me to order chicken. I'm not trying to order steak but the words come out as chicken (that would be somewhat disconcerting!). The very intention to order chicken has already been fixed by Allah. I can no more decide to not order chicken that I can decide to stop my hair from growing.

You can order either, the choice is yours but Allah swt knows what that choice is. He does not force you to pick chicken or steak, he just knows which one you will pick.

I don't know, sorry.

Reply 388

h333

16

Original post by QE2

And you hate disbelievers, but you don't see me crying about it. I just challenge you to justify your belief.
If you can't, fair enough. I've tried to find logical, reasonable and evidential reason for justifying belief in Islam, and I can't - and I'm not burdened by indoctrination and confirmation bias.

I don't hate disbelievers and I am not crying about it either. You was the one that quoted me and accused Muslims of holding ridiculous beliefs. As I said before you can't force someone into a debate and people are not always going to agree with you. Maybe try chasing Muslims in real life more often too and challenge their beliefs, while you're at it get contact with Islamic scholars too and tell them that your interpretations are right as well as challenging them too.

Original post by Josb

OP doesn't care anymore.

You accuse me of hating Muslims, but what should I say when Miszshortie said that non-Muslims cannot be righteous?

Muslims are also very immature when they accuse other people of hating Muslims just because they ask them to justify their beliefs.

You quoted me so I responded to you. You indirectly called Muslims immature for following Islam but honestly I don't mind because I know there will be people who will hate Islam. Whereas, I never claimed all non-Muslims are immature but specifically that person who quoted me in this case. One does not need to keep chasing Muslims to start debates when they don't want to and lead to this, where it has gone off topic and not even relevant to the thread anymore.

This is my last say on this as I don't want to start an on going debate here too, I'm sure there is enough already.

Reply 389

Zamestaneh

21

Original post by Plantagenet Crown

Well no, because it's Allah who has set the seal on our hearts and minds so it is him who is entirely to blame.

Life is a test for us, not for God. The fact God knows the outcome doesn't change the fact that you make manifest your own predermined outcome by virtue of your choices.

A person rejects guidance before a seal is placed over their hearts, which is why I gave my analogy.

Reply 390

troubadour.

19

Original post by BigTraderBoi

Anyone who doesn't believe in all of the Quran and hadiths is not within the fold of Islam.

There goes the eminently rigorous field of Hadith science. Many scholars will be out of job thanks to you. :sad:

Reply 391

QE2

20

Original post by AishaGirl

You can order either, the choice is yours but Allah swt knows what that choice is. He does not force you to pick chicken or steak, he just knows which one you will pick.

I don't know, sorry.

So if Allah knows that I will pick chicken, I can still pick steak?
But that would mean that Allah was wrong!

The point is, he knows before I choose, which choice I am going to make. He is not merely observing and commenting. Remember that Allah decreed all this and wrote it down 50,000 before creation (sahih Muslim).
“Do you not know that Allaah knows what is in the heavens and earth? Indeed that is in a book. Indeed that is easy for Allaah.” (Qur’an Chapter al-Hajj, 22: 80)
“No calamity strikes in the earth or in yourselves except that it is in a book before I bring it into existence.” (Qur’an Chapter al-Hadeed, 57: 22)

Imagine.
Allah and Jibril are watching me look at the menu. Jibril says to Allah "what's he going to order?"
Allah consults his book and says "chicken".
Am I able to order steak? Obviously not, because if I did, it would contradict Allah's knowledge. The argument that he merely wrote down what he saw me freely choosing in the future is flawed, because by infallibly recording it, it is now fixed at the point when I actually make the choice. Thus no free will.

Reply 392

Plantagenet Crown

20

Original post by Zamestaneh

Life is a test for us, not for God. The fact God knows the outcome doesn't change the fact that you make manifest your own predermined outcome by virtue of your choices.

A person rejects guidance before a seal is placed over their hearts, which is why I gave my analogy.

I've heard this platitude many times and it really is meaningless. We're the ones being tested and God is the only arbiter of the outcome so it is him doing the testing. Once again, you cannot test someone if you know and have actually fixed the outcome. In this context a test loses all meaning.

The verse does not say that, it simply says a seal is placed on their heart and mind. And even if it's placed on after it prevents the person from ever having a change of heart so it still makes no sense. It's contradictory islamic theology that people who clearly didn't have a sophisticated knowledge made up over a thousand years ago.

Reply 393

QE2

20

Original post by h333

I don't hate disbelievers

You say I hate Muslims, I say you hate disbelievers. I say this because the Quran says you do.
You think we are the vilest of animals (8:55), and that there is enmity and hate between us until I accept Allah (60:4), not to mention the fact that you think I deserve to be tortured for eternity simply for requiring reasonable evidence for the extraordinary claims of Islam. Not nice.

I, on the other hand, don't hate you, or other Muslims, I am just strongly opposed to Islam as an ideology (you can call it "hate" if you want, I'm not so keen on the word myself).

and I am not crying about it either.

OK, but you do complain a lot.

You was the one that quoted me and accused Muslims of holding ridiculous beliefs.

To pretty much everyone but Muslims, they are ridiculous.

Maybe try chasing Muslims in real life more often too and challenge their beliefs,

I do. Whenever I see a table of dawah pamphlets, I see that as an invitation to debate. The problem with doing it IRL ourside of a proper debate structure, there just tends to be a lot of talking over me and refusing to answer questions.

while you're at it get contact with Islamic scholars too and tell them that your interpretations are right as well as challenging them too.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I often quote Islamic scholars to illustrate my arguments. And which scholars are you referring to? I find that there tends to be a wide variety of opinion amongst modern scholars, so where one might say a verse means "X", another might say it means "not X" or "Y". Which is why I looked into which tafsir was the most widely used, respected and authoritative, and stuck with that one.
So if I say that a particular scholar that an apologist might be quoting in an argument is wrong it's not because I think he's wrong, but because Ibn Kathir thinks he is.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 394

QE2

20

Original post by Zamestaneh

Life is a test for us, not for God. The fact God knows the outcome doesn't change the fact that you make manifest your own predermined outcome by virtue of your choices.

WTF does this even mean?
God has predetermined our actions but we act them out by making our own choices?
That is may sound reasonable in your head, but it makes zero sense out here in the real world.

A person rejects guidance before a seal is placed over their hearts, which is why I gave my analogy.

But this cannot be, because Allah has determined the outcome of all things 50,000 years before creation. He knows that I will require evidence, he knows that he will fail to provide it, so he knows that he will set a seal. All before life even started on this planet.

Also, if I Allah waits until he knows that I will definitely never believe, before he sets the seal, what is the point of the seal? I serves no purpose. (It also contradicts the fundamental tenets of Qadr)
If there is a possibility that I may yet see the light, then setting a seal is unjust and cruel.

Reply 395

Anonymous #15

Original post by QE2

You say I hate Muslims, I say you hate disbelievers. I say this because the Quran says you do.
You think we are the vilest of animals (8:55), and that there is enmity and hate between us until I accept Allah (60:4), not to mention the fact that you think I deserve to be tortured for eternity simply for requiring reasonable evidence for the extraordinary claims of Islam. Not nice.

I, on the other hand, don't hate you, or other Muslims, I am just strongly opposed to Islam as an ideology (you can call it "hate" if you want, I'm not so keen on the word myself).

You need to stop deceiving others. You say that you don't hate Muslims but then disrespect them and think of them as ridiculous for believing in Islam when it is a religion they chose to follow. I wonder do you challenge all beliefs that you disagree with? If so, are you ready to chase, challenge Jews, Christians, Sikhs, Bhuddists or any way of life that believes in a creator and follow it on TSR, just as you do with islam, to be unbias or be fairer?

Reply 396

QE2

20

Original post by Anonymous

You need to stop deceiving others. You say that you don't hate Muslims but then disrespect them and think of them as ridiculous for believing in Islam when it is a religion they chose to follow.

Not quite.
Muslims are individuals who hold varying beliefs (compare Mohammad Emwazi to Majid Nawaaz), and I will judge them as individuals on the basis of their words and deeds, as I do with everyone.
However, I do indeed think that Islamic beliefs are ridiculous, and I have no respect for anyone who claims that those beliefs are perfect and preferable to the values of liberal, secular democracy.

I wonder do you challenge all beliefs that you disagree with? If so, are you ready to chase, challenge Jews, Christians, Sikhs, Bhuddists or any way of life that believes in a creator and follow it on TSR, just as you do with islam, to be unbias or be fairer?

I will challenge them all, but Islam is the one that comes up the most and Muslims tend to make the most ridiculous claims.

Reply 397

EternalLight

2

Original post by QE2

However, I do indeed think that Islamic beliefs are ridiculous, and I have no respect for anyone who claims that those beliefs are perfect and preferable to the values of liberal, secular democracy.

Do you respect Muslims as people? Would you ever be friends with a Muslim? As long as they did not try to impose their views onto you?

Reply 398

QE2

20

Original post by AishaGirl

Do you respect Muslims as people?

As I always say, Muslims are individuals and I will judge them by their words and deeds, just like I do with everyone else. It's like asking if I respect Americans or white people.

Would you ever be friends with a Muslim? As long as they did not try to impose their views onto you?

I have been and still am. The Muslims I would cal proper friends were less observant than you would probably approve of. The few more observant types on my courses at uni, I was on friendly terms but didn't hang out at all, more their choice than mine.

I would be fine with them trying to impose their views as it would be a green light for heated debate! (I think that I have already mentioned that I only debate IRL if the other person(s) are up for it as well. I never just start on randoms)