Why are a lot of people Islamophobic?
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Original post by aminxv
"Data? Okay: Since 9/11, of the 8 major terrorist attacks in Europe..."
Great data! As I mentioned in my response where is Palestine, or the middle east in here? Where was the massacre of the muslims in Serbia? You data proves nothing, and you wasted your time googling it this morning. How about we takes these deaths (even in Europe because its the whole world according to you) and divide them by the total murders and deaths caused in these ways. It will be a tiny percentage, because there are messed up people of any faith.
ISIS kill more muslims than non muslims - FACT.
There are over 1 billion muslims, how many muslims took part in these attacks, lets say for arguments sake in these 8 attacks 1000 muslims where in on it (very optimistic for people like you, its more likely less than 100). Divide this by a billion and what do you get?
Let me do the maths, from your arguments it seems you may not be capable: 0.000001 of all the muslims on earth.
You've made the exact same arguments again. You've added nothing to the debate and I'm sure you will continue doing so.
"No, the Qur'an states that non-believers will burn in hell for eternity. I hardly call this a just punishment for people who didn't have the 'good fortune' to be born into an Islamic country. It's not a radical view, it's literally the word of your God. It's the same in Christianity as well, apparently simply being gay is enough to land you in the inferno. Although, the teachings of Jesus do somewhat contradict this with the omnipresent features of love and forgiveness. God of the Old Testament though... he's a malevolent creature."
How dare you assume what I believe. Give me the verse in context where this is said. We are told off as kids for saying "that man murder someone he will go to hell". The "non muslims" mentioned in the Qu'ran to be punished are mostly those of the Quraish tribe who committed atrocities.
Educate yourself before responding
I'm not as eloquent as this man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy9tNyp03M0
Great data! As I mentioned in my response where is Palestine, or the middle east in here? Where was the massacre of the muslims in Serbia? You data proves nothing, and you wasted your time googling it this morning. How about we takes these deaths (even in Europe because its the whole world according to you) and divide them by the total murders and deaths caused in these ways. It will be a tiny percentage, because there are messed up people of any faith.
ISIS kill more muslims than non muslims - FACT.
There are over 1 billion muslims, how many muslims took part in these attacks, lets say for arguments sake in these 8 attacks 1000 muslims where in on it (very optimistic for people like you, its more likely less than 100). Divide this by a billion and what do you get?
Let me do the maths, from your arguments it seems you may not be capable: 0.000001 of all the muslims on earth.
You've made the exact same arguments again. You've added nothing to the debate and I'm sure you will continue doing so.
"No, the Qur'an states that non-believers will burn in hell for eternity. I hardly call this a just punishment for people who didn't have the 'good fortune' to be born into an Islamic country. It's not a radical view, it's literally the word of your God. It's the same in Christianity as well, apparently simply being gay is enough to land you in the inferno. Although, the teachings of Jesus do somewhat contradict this with the omnipresent features of love and forgiveness. God of the Old Testament though... he's a malevolent creature."
How dare you assume what I believe. Give me the verse in context where this is said. We are told off as kids for saying "that man murder someone he will go to hell". The "non muslims" mentioned in the Qu'ran to be punished are mostly those of the Quraish tribe who committed atrocities.
Educate yourself before responding
I'm not as eloquent as this man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy9tNyp03M0
My data proves that 7/8 of the major terror attacks in Europe, since 9/11, have been committed by Muslims. The 8th was arguably a reaction to radical Islam. If you actually bothered to read my posts throughout this thread, you will notice that I have stated on multiple occasions that these consist of a small number of extremists, but nevertheless the vast majority of recent terrorist attacks have been committed in the name of Islam, and there is theocratic justification for this. There is clearly a problem with radicalisation in the Islamic community, because these problems are no where near as prevalent amongst other groups. Is the overall number big? No, not when compared to the population. But it's still significantly higher than others, which is a major problem that needs to be addressed, rather than brushed aside using the "not real Muslims" defence.
The reason I'm talking about Europe is because of this entire thread is about why a large number of Westerners are Islamophobic. In response to this, I identified the primary reasons as being a) high volume of Islamic terrorism, and b) backwards cultural values that are at risk of being imported here if immigration is not controlled. Deaths in places like the ME are largely due to sectarian warfare, it's an entirely different situation. Regardless, my main concern is tackling the terrorism problem at home, in Europe, where it shouldn't be happening at all as it is not an active warzone.
So you can divide 1000 by 1 billion? Do you want a medal? Rather than attempting (and failing) to insult me, how about you actually respond properly to my argument rather than playing the victim card?
I'm not assuming what you believe, but it is mentioned - on multiple occasions - in the Qur'an, that disbelievers are going to burn in hell for eternity. As far as I'm aware, the Qur'an is supposed to be the final message from God? If this is the case, then it seems in direct contradiction to God's word if you do not believe that disbelievers will go to hell. I'd certainly commend you for not believing in it, but if you don't then you seem awfully selective in what you choose to believe in, which undermines the entire text. But you want some direct quotes from the Qur'an? Happy to oblige:
Quran (22:19-21) - But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron
Quran (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise
Quran (9:73) - O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination
Quran (66:9) - O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.
Quran (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve
I don't have a Qur'an in front of me, so I can't provide the full verses for context, but I find it hard to imagine a situation where this is considered anything but barbaric.
And you're actually using a video by Mehdi Hassan to back yourself up? The man's a fool, who lies about his own religion to shore up his weak arguments in debates:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GIzAtAHVm8k
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Amazon_Lover
I dont understand why
Original post by awakaman
...
Do you even know why Al-Qaeda attacked the U.S? I bet you don't even know the motive.
Original post by AishaGirl
Do you even know why Al-Qaeda attacked the U.S? I bet you don't even know the motive.
oil?
Original post by awakaman
oil?
what?
Original post by AishaGirl
what?
You asked me a question and the answer is oil, extra virgin olive oil, they were promised 72 bottles in heaven.
Original post by awakaman
You asked me a question and the answer is oil, extra virgin olive oil, they were promised 72 bottles in heaven.
Hilarious.
Original post by awakaman
i dont have the time nor the motive to read what you wrote but i would like to debate you! do you accept my challenge motherfu**er?! why dont you insult my mom you sick pig!!!!
BENTEKE!!!!
BENTEKE!!!!
Spoiler
Original post by Count Bezukhov
How eloquent.
Spoiler
you are a true diva roach and id kill you if i didnt love you so much you fiend
Original post by AishaGirl
Do you even know why Al-Qaeda attacked the U.S? I bet you don't even know the motive.
Oh dear. Don't tell me you're also in the business of making excuses for deliberate, premeditated attacks on civilians.
Original post by Hydeman
Oh dear. Don't tell me you're also in the business of making excuses for deliberate, premeditated attacks on civilians.
Newton's 3rd law of motion: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I'm not saying it was justified, but if you interfere in other countries affairs and fund a state to occupy someone else's land then you should expect some reaction.
I do not support or condone any deliberate attacks against civilians...
Original post by Josb
Most of the deaths in Iraq were caused by the civil war that followed the American invasion. The war itself was pretty short.
The civil war involved Shia and Sunni militias killing each others. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed since 2003 were killed by other Muslims.
The civil war involved Shia and Sunni militias killing each others. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed since 2003 were killed by other Muslims.
could you please provide statistical evidence of this it would be much appreciated.
Original post by AishaGirl
Newton's 3rd law of motion: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
A law of nature is not comparable with the actions of sentient beings unless you believe in hard determinism which, being a Muslim, I presume you don't.
I'm not saying it was justified, but if you interfere in other countries affairs and fund a state to occupy someone else's land then you should expect some reaction.
I do not support or condone any deliberate attacks against civilians...
I do not support or condone any deliberate attacks against civilians...
I see a 'but.'
Whose land? 9/11 wasn't the work of a Palestinian group. You'd have a point if we were talking about the kidnap and massacre of the Israeli delegation at the 1972 Munich Olympics.
It's an interesting bit of doublethink - you believe, do you not, that members of al-Qaeda are at the very least not properly following Islam, if not out of it altogether? Why then do you maintain that they have any right to be vicariously aggrieved by injustices in Palestine, given they are neither Palestinians nor proper Muslims?
Original post by Hydeman
Irish people, who are predominantly white, suffered the same association with terrorism during the Troubles. The killer of Jo Cox is rightly referred to as an assassin - that is what he is. A targeted killing is not the same thing as indiscriminately shooting up a Christmas market.
Some valid points, but why do you believe that the Sun and the Mail are representative of the whole media? I would say the great problem of our time is sectionalism - everybody simply wants to advance their own narrow interests. That's evident from your generalisation about the media - you cite the Sun and the Mail, but neglect to mention the Independent, or the Huffington Post, or the Guardian. All of those would take the wind right out of your argument that there is an organised media conspiracy against your interest group (Muslims).
Regarding false stories, I would just say that quite a number of instances of anti-Muslim crimes have later been found to be fabricated. But did you know of that before I told you? I expect not. The truth is almost always more complicated than a story about a wholly good guy and a wholly bad guy.
Some valid points, but why do you believe that the Sun and the Mail are representative of the whole media? I would say the great problem of our time is sectionalism - everybody simply wants to advance their own narrow interests. That's evident from your generalisation about the media - you cite the Sun and the Mail, but neglect to mention the Independent, or the Huffington Post, or the Guardian. All of those would take the wind right out of your argument that there is an organised media conspiracy against your interest group (Muslims).
Regarding false stories, I would just say that quite a number of instances of anti-Muslim crimes have later been found to be fabricated. But did you know of that before I told you? I expect not. The truth is almost always more complicated than a story about a wholly good guy and a wholly bad guy.
actually the murder of joe cox was by the very definition of terrorism a terrorist attack as the exact definition of terrorism is the use of violence and intimidation often against civilians in an effort to further a political goal. therefore in many cases it could be argued that the previous poster is corrct in saying that many white people also attempt to commit terrorist attacks but are not often branded terrorists due to them being non muslim if we look at this matter objectively.
Original post by Hydeman
A law of nature is not comparable with the actions of sentient beings unless you believe in hard determinism which, being a Muslim, I presume you don't.
Why not?
Original post by Hydeman
A law of nature is not comparable with the actions of sentient beings unless you believe in hard determinism which, being a Muslim, I presume you don't.
Oh dear that really went over your head didn't it?
I see a 'but.'
Whose land? 9/11 wasn't the work of a Palestinian group. You'd have a point if we were talking about the kidnap and massacre of the Israeli delegation at the 1972 Munich Olympics.
Whose land? 9/11 wasn't the work of a Palestinian group. You'd have a point if we were talking about the kidnap and massacre of the Israeli delegation at the 1972 Munich Olympics.
The U.S fund a state which is encroaching on another's and oppressing the Muslims and you wonder why the U.S may be seen as an enemy by some Muslims?
It's an interesting bit of doublethink - you believe, do you not, that members of al-Qaeda are at the very least not properly following Islam, if not out of it altogether? Why then do you maintain that they have any right to be vicariously aggrieved by injustices in Palestine, given they are neither Palestinians nor proper Muslims?
This is a lengthy topic, in a nutshell Muslims should protect and defend other Muslims and Palestinians are being oppressed, therefore an offensive position may be taken against the oppressors and their allies by some Muslims.
Slaughtering the Israeli olympic team was completely unjust.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by ward47
actually the murder of joe cox was by the very definition of terrorism a terrorist attack as the exact definition of terrorism is the use of violence and intimidation often against civilians in an effort to further a political goal. therefore in many cases it could be argued that the previous poster is corrct in saying that many white people also attempt to commit terrorist attacks but are not often branded terrorists due to them being non muslim if we look at this matter objectively.
Not all political violence/attempts to intimidate civilians are classed the same way. We have a specific word for Saddam Hussein's use of poison gas in Halabja: genocide. That would fit your definition too but it's recognised that you can't reasonably group together someone blowing himself up in a market in Baghdad to make a point about the Iraqi government with someone killing Kurds because they are Kurds. Likewise, we say Abraham Lincoln, Mohandas Gandhi (whose killer was not white), and Jo Cox, were assassinated even if these killings also caused people to be intimidated and were politically motivated.
Original post by Cherub012
Why not?
Hard determinism holds that free will does not exist. Free will is quite an important belief in Islam, therefore it's unlikely a Muslim would be a hard determinist.
Original post by Hydeman
Hard determinism holds that free will does not exist. Free will is quite an important belief in Islam, therefore it's unlikely a Muslim would be a hard determinist.
Hard determinism holds that free will does not exist. Free will is quite an important belief in Islam, therefore it's unlikely a Muslim would be a hard determinist.
Oh fair point.
I thought you meant determinism was mutually exclusive with belief in God...
Original post by AishaGirl
Oh dear that really went over your head didn't it?
What, that it was a poor analogy from someone who freely admits to being bad at analogies? No, I think not.
Though I must say few things amuse me as much as edgy A Level students with delusions of grandeur about their intellect.
The U.S fund a state which is encroaching on another's and oppressing the Muslims and you wonder why the U.S may be seen as an enemy by some Muslims?
This is a lengthy topic, in a nutshell Muslims should protect and defend other Muslims and Palestinians are being oppressed, therefore an offensive position may be taken against the oppressors and their allies by some Muslims.
This is a lengthy topic, in a nutshell Muslims should protect and defend other Muslims and Palestinians are being oppressed, therefore an offensive position may be taken against the oppressors and their allies by some Muslims.
So the members of al-Qaeda, including the 9/11 hijackers, can be considered legitimate Muslims?
This is what I meant by excuse-making - you keep saying you don't justify the action, yet continue to produce innuendo to that effect. In any case, contrary to those who live for vicarious grievances in the absence of any real ones in their own lives, the United States is simply pursuing the interests of itself and its allies (which include most Muslim countries), like any other country - if you believe it is justified for Muslims to look after their own (which is nationalism in all but name), so to speak, what leg have you to stand on regarding US support for Israel? Note also that Palestinian =/= Muslim.
Slaughtering the Israeli olympic team was completely unjust.
I didn't actually say anything about whether or not it was just. I said that the perpetrators of that could claim to be aggrieved because they were Palestinians and could argue they were fighting to free their people. Al-Qaeda on the other hand is not a Palestinian group and are, by most Muslim accounts, not proper Muslims either, meaning the same argument is not convincing when made by them.
Original post by Hydeman
What, that it was a poor analogy from someone who freely admits to being bad at analogies? No, I think not.
Though I must say few things amuse me as much as edgy A Level students with delusions of grandeur about their intellect.
Though I must say few things amuse me as much as edgy A Level students with delusions of grandeur about their intellect.
I thought it was pretty obvious, I was going to use the classic "if you poke a bear with a stick..." but never mind.
So the members of al-Qaeda, including the 9/11 hijackers, can be considered legitimate Muslims? This is what I meant by excuse-making - you keep saying you don't justify the action, yet continue to produce innuendo to that effect.
This is what I meant by excuse-making - you keep saying you don't justify the action, yet continue to produce innuendo to that effect.Just because A Muslim may commit a terrible crime doesn't suddenly not make them a Muslim. Their understanding of the religion is skewed by they still believe in the Quran, sunnah and the prophet Muhammad saw.
In any case, contrary to those who live for vicarious grievances in the absence of any real ones in their own lives, the United States is simply pursuing the interests of itself and its allies (which include most Muslim countries), like any other country - if you believe it is justified for Muslims to look after their own (which is nationalism in all but name), so to speak, what leg have you to stand on regarding US support for Israel?
So it's OK for a country to encroach and oppress others to further their own self interest? Interesting.
Note also that Palestinian =/= Muslim.
Al-Qaeda on the other hand is not a Palestinian group and are, by most Muslim accounts, not proper Muslims either, meaning the same argument is not convincing when made by them.
Muslims should defend Muslims, I already told you that.
(edited 7 years ago)
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