Senior Status Law: Oxford vs Cambridge

Original post by FebruaryFace

To those more informed than I am,

I am planning on applying for postgraduate law, which will include an application to either the senior status program at Oxford, or the affiliated student program at Cambridge. I need some help differentiating between the two and working out which is best for me.

Having done a lot of research via the institution websites, and emailing members of staff, I still have a bunch of questions that I could use some clarification on:

- I know both cities well, and love them both. I find Cambridge more close and friendly, while Oxford has more energy; I would be happy making either home for two years. I've attended the open days of both, and found them equally warm, welcoming, and full of engaging people. Is either one law program regarded as better structured, more flexible, more inclusive etc. of graduate law students?

- I am studying an MSc at UCL, in Politics and Philosophy of Science, and became set on law after taking a module in political philosophy of counter-terrorism. I believe that the Oxford course, Jurisprudence, is often said to be more theoretical; how true is this, and how does the focus of each course differ? I'm not totally set on being a lawyer, per se, I am just really interested in studying the law.

- I understand that the Oxford senior status program offers the chance to begin studying 2/3rds of the way through 1st year, rather than at the beginning of 2nd year. Does this make an appreciable difference to the intensity of the workload, and does it help/hinder becoming part of the social fabric of the department/college?

- I'm on track for a Distinction at MSc level, which I study alongside working 4 days a week for a really cool and unique research job. I think I have some pretty good work experience, and can demonstrate passion and hard work through hobbies (like rowing). However, my undergrad studies (while generally alright) have a few rough patches due to illness. Without wanting to sound too much like I'm asking 'which is easier to get in to?' (entirely aware the answer to that is 'neither' ), is one university, or certain colleges within the universities, generally more considerate of a candidate as a whole rather than as a mere academic record? Does one more than another still place significant weight on GCSEs and A-Levels? I've heard the rumours about Cambridge being less concerned with GCSEs, but more with A-levels, which would seem to demonstrate that they like people who show upwards trajectory. Equally, I've been told before that Oxford is more likely to consider the candidate as a whole. I have not seen any real proof of either being the case - and I imagine any difference is negligible and/or variant between colleges - but, in case there IS a marked difference, I thought I'd ask!

In addition, are there any specific colleges at either university (eg I know Hughes Hall, Camb, is a mature college with a large law intake) which are more open to graduate law students?

- From my understanding, Cambridge tends to interview a significant portion of candidates, whereas Oxford interviews fewer. However, Oxford pools students even if they don't make it to interview, whereas Cambridge only pools you if you have been asked to interview. I also understand that Oxford only interviews you if you pass the LNAT, whereas Cambridge interviews and assesses at the same time. Is this correct, and can anybody elucidate on the separate admissions processes?

Apologies for the huge post! I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to determine the 'easiest' university to get into; I am after a top tier education, in the place best geared for who I am and what I study. Any advice from people who know the process well, have gone through it, and have studied law (graduate or otherwise) at either institution would be hugely helpful! Currently, I'm finding it difficult to separate out the pros and cons.

Hi just wondering what you ended up doing? Did you apply to both?

Reply 3

OP

Original post by ZXJ

Hi just wondering what you ended up doing? Did you apply to both?

Hi

So, turns out you can only apply to one. I applied to Oxford, because they don't charge second BA students college fees (whereas Cambridge usually does). It also just felt like a better fit for me. I got an offer in January, and I'll actually be starting next week. :smile:

If you have any questions, do ask. I'm a pro at the process now! (well, ish).

Reply 4

ZXJ

Original post by FebruaryFace

Hi

So, turns out you can only apply to one. I applied to Oxford, because they don't charge second BA students college fees (whereas Cambridge usually does). It also just felt like a better fit for me. I got an offer in January, and I'll actually be starting next week. :smile:

If you have any questions, do ask. I'm a pro at the process now! (well, ish).

Well, thanks for replying and many congratulations for getting in!!!! To be honest, I'm not surprised 'cos you seem to be very academically minded, with genuine love of learning. I heard it is more difficult to get into Senior Status than regular law. So very well done!
I'm thinking about applying this October if I don't get a TC by the summer. Are you doing the 7 term course? which college? Its usual UCAS application, with similar personal statement? How was the interview process? Tough? and what about the test, LNAT. Did you take that, and how difficult was it. How much prep does it require? What is the best way to prep for that ?

I heard the Oxford one is philosophical. Not sure about Cambridge course. Do you know about that course.

I hope you look at this thread in July 'cos I will know then if I will be applying. And I may reach out to you then with any more questions.

Reply 5

Whatisup

HeySo do you actually have answers to any of the questions that you initially posted? Because I am in the exact same spot as you are except I don't think I could apply for the seven terms senior status program in oxford because I would still be in my first uni and not yet done with my degree when the term starts. What's your advice?

Reply 6

Whatisup

Original post by FebruaryFace

Hi

So, turns out you can only apply to one. I applied to Oxford, because they don't charge second BA students college fees (whereas Cambridge usually does). It also just felt like a better fit for me. I got an offer in January, and I'll actually be starting next week. :smile:

If you have any questions, do ask. I'm a pro at the process now! (well, ish).

Hi

So do you have answers to the questions that you posted the first time around. The thing is I won't be eligible for the seven terms option at Oxford because I would still be in the process of completing my first degree then. So between the six terms option at Oxford and the Cambridge affiliate student one, which do you think is a better option. What worries me is that although I like Oxford better, the way they have described themselves, it seems like it would be very difficult to cope in that program whereas Cambridge seems more hopeful in taking in students in the second year. What's your advice?

Reply 7

OP

Original post by Whatisup

Hi

So do you have answers to the questions that you posted the first time around. The thing is I won't be eligible for the seven terms option at Oxford because I would still be in the process of completing my first degree then. So between the six terms option at Oxford and the Cambridge affiliate student one, which do you think is a better option. What worries me is that although I like Oxford better, the way they have described themselves, it seems like it would be very difficult to cope in that program whereas Cambridge seems more hopeful in taking in students in the second year. What's your advice?

The first biggie, that I didn't appreciate until after I applied (luckily I applied to Oxford) is that Oxford doesn't ask second BA students to pay college fees, but Cambridge does. Depending on your college, this could be between £6-10k more per year (on top of student fees, accommodation, food etc) - so if you don't have a scholarship/lots of savings then Oxford is cheaper (despite the living costs arguably being slightly higher).

The application for both is fairly similar I think - do some practice LNATs and Cambridge Law exams, and see which you feel more comfortable with. I personally preferred the LNAT, which was the main reason I applied to Oxford.

I personally think the Camb lecture system sounds better - the lectures line up with the corresponding tutorials (whereas at Ox you can be having tutorials on Criminal but the lectures that term are on Tort and Contract).

However, I think Camb is probably more judgemental about past academics - Oxford took me with fairly average previous grades, because (as it turns out) I'm pretty good at law, and that's all they care about. It's all hearsay, but I imagine Camb may have written me off before waiting to see if I had any legal aptitude.

The main thing I would say is - and I really *cannot* stress this enough - doing the whole course in 7 terms is HARD WORK. You feel like you don't come up for air the whole time you're there, and you have really no time to get involved in much outside your studies. I didn't get more than 5 hours sleep once during the whole term. We were doing (in effect) twice as much as the regular BA students this term, with 3 hours of compulsory contact hours - you're by yourself most of the time trying to digest huge amounts of foreign material, so it's very easy to drown (in order to counter this you then have to revise for the entire of summer to catch up). I personally love the degree, but I am a masochist and I genuinely enjoy the stress and i'm-on-the-brink-of-an-actual-breakdown-ness of it all. I honestly have no idea how the 6 term applicants do it at Oxford - having spoken to a couple, it seems they are resigned to the idea of getting a 2i (not much chance of a 1st) and feeling like they barely understand the material, because they just don't have the time to read it all. So I'd advise that, unless you *love* the idea of studying academic law at a fast pace, to either do the GDL (which is cheaper and shorter) or a full 3 year law degree (which gives you more time to understand the subject matter better). That said, I believe the Cambridge 6 term course is more flexible and, thus, marginally more easy-going - but it can't be vastly different, as you still need to cram the QLD modules in. The focus on philosophical concepts v practical law sounds fairly similar at both unis - my course-mate did a term in Camb and he thought that, while the teaching styles were different, the content was fairly similar. So, all other things aside, if I had to do it in 6 terms I would probably opt for Camb. But I would personally never apply for 6 terms, knowing what I know now. I want to be a barrister, and to be a barrister you need a good grade. Trying to learn everything *and do well* in 6 terms would be a punishing feat. It's doable, and people better then I am will have done it, but I just don't know that it would be worth the suffering. As become more efficient, I want to participate in more sport and mooting (to learn new skills and give my brain a rest) - something I know the 6 term students just don't have time to do.

I don't mean to be a party-pooper, I just don't think I knew before applying just HOW much work it would be. I'd worked 4 days a week while studying my MSc, and totally thought the second BA 'high workload' would be similar. Ohhh how wrong I was. That said, I LOVE it - I love the pressure, the constant feeling of being about the drown, and the amazing people I've met. Plus, the admissions tutors know how hard it is: they won't admit you if they don't think you can handle it.

So really, my advice is - think about why you're really applying, and what you want out of it: if you just want to be a good solicitor or barrister, and you don't want to waste time or money, the GDL is a perfect option; if you want to really understand the law and get a good grade, the 3 year degree is a great choice; if you want to shave off a year, be a good lawyer, you want to experience working under intense pressure, and you want to graduate with a reasonable depth of understanding at the risk of sacrificing a top grade, the second BA is for you. The second BA will not make you a better candidate for jobs than a 3 year BA or a GDL (ie the added intensity of it won't make you more employable), so it has to be the right educational fit for you.

I hope that helps :smile:

(NB I'm writing this in a hurry on my lunch break, so sorry if it's a bit garbled)

Reply 8

nal14

Hey FebruaryFace!Thanks for you valuable input regarding your experience! I want to eventually become a barrister (and yes, I know it is a hard and pretty competitive path). I hold a law degree (1st) from a Peruvian University, and have been working in a top-tier law firm for the past three years (doing mainly international litigation and arbitration). My idea is to move to the UK and study all along so I can become a barrister. Would you recommend me following a law senior status program, a regular law program or a GDL, all of them followed by a BPTC? I am aware there are additional hurdles in the middle (e.g. english is not my first language, I would have to struggle to get a visa if I want to eventually work in the UK, there is only one Latin American lawyer accepted to the Bar in the history). Do you have any experience with foreign students aspiring to become barristers? What are your thoughts on that?

Reply 9

OP

Original post by nal14

Hey FebruaryFace!Thanks for you valuable input regarding your experience! I want to eventually become a barrister (and yes, I know it is a hard and pretty competitive path). I hold a law degree (1st) from a Peruvian University, and have been working in a top-tier law firm for the past three years (doing mainly international litigation and arbitration). My idea is to move to the UK and study all along so I can become a barrister. Would you recommend me following a law senior status program, a regular law program or a GDL, all of them followed by a BPTC? I am aware there are additional hurdles in the middle (e.g. english is not my first language, I would have to struggle to get a visa if I want to eventually work in the UK, there is only one Latin American lawyer accepted to the Bar in the history). Do you have any experience with foreign students aspiring to become barristers? What are your thoughts on that?

Hi!

So my coursemate and friend is doing basically that - he studied law in a civil law jurisdiction first, got work experience in international arbitration, and is now doing the senior status degree. His main grumble is that he wishes he'd done a masters instead - he thinks this course is a bit soul-crushing, in that it doesn't really do a very good job of teaching you the law because you just don't have enough time to really study it (ie something that they'd teach you over a year in most universities/back in his country they teach you in 8 weeks here, so you always feel like you understand nothing / could be doing better, which is a difficult feeling to come to terms with). He chose the senior status course because he wasn't sure what he wanted to do next, and he thought it would act as an English masters would (in that it would demonstrate to his home-country employers English language proficiency) but would also open the option to study law in England. I think he wishes he's just done the BCL, or stayed in at home tbh - because as soon as the stress from his first lot of studies was over, he gave himself even more stress in Oxford - and the stress of Oxford is UNREAL.

That said, if you're set on becoming a barrister it's not a *bad* idea. I would just say the GDL is better. The GDL can firstly be sponsored - so it's possible (although unlikely) you could find a chambers to subsidise it. It's also shorter, making it cheaper - and you start earning again sooner, both important considerations. It teaches you the same stuff, but a bit more stripped down so you don't need to learn superfluous info - which, considering you'll specialise as a barrister, is really all you need because you'll never revisit most of it in practice anyway. Also, having spent a lot of times perusing chambers' websites when applying for work experience, a LOT of barristers at top sets did the GDL. In fact, most. Some of the have first law degrees, but I'd say the majority did a different degree first / a law degree in another jurisdiction and then did the GDL followed by the BPTC. Which goes to show the GDL will set you at no disadvantage and makes you very employable. Had I known I wanted to be a barrister when I applied for law, I would have probably have chosen the GDL.

When you apply for jobs you will inevitably be asked 'why senior status and not the GDL?' and I think you need a good reason for that. For me, it was that I didn't know I wanted to actually be a lawyer when I applied - I just knew I wanted to learn about the law - so a vocational degree like the GDL wouldn't have made sense. If you think you have a good answer for that question, then senior status may well be for you. :smile:

As a side note, to anyone reading thinking of doing senior status law: I'm stoic, i'm resilient, and I'm not someone who gets bogged down or disheartened easily. But this term I have cried more than I cried in maybe the 10 years preceding it. I genuinely almost had a breakdown, and that's unheard of for me. The pace of the course is so intense that if one little thing happens - you get a cold so can't work efficiently for a few days for example - you get behind, and there is no accommodation for that. Similarly, one of my friends on the normal undergrad *did* have a bit of a breakdown, my civil-law friend also really struggled with the workload and his mental health - despite being provenly brilliant at the law back home, and 2 people (out of the 7 in the year) dropped out (of the normal degree, not senior status). I cannot emphasise enough how tough the law degree is at Oxford on mental health. I think I've been pretty resilient, but I feel like I'm just about surviving - certainly not thriving. I'm very nervous that I won't have the space on this degree to achieve the grades I know I'd be capable of if I was in a more reasonable setting - and I know most people feel that way. Many people regret not going to a more chilled out uni where they would, providing they still worked quite hard, get a first, enjoy the subject, and be able to maintain healthy relationship and social activities. The stress of never having a break - all the holidays are just work, work, work (I was working for most of xmas day, and applying for work experience for all of xmas eve) - starts off as kind of fun, but quickly becomes genuinely exhausting and damaging to relationships and wellbeing. You have to be super aware what you're signing up for. I still wouldn't change my decision to do the degree, because for me it was a tool to work out what I actually wanted to do (and now I know: become a barrister) and I think it's teaching me a huge range of life skills - but equally, I think I would probably have been a better applicant for the bar had I just done the GDL and done a good job of it. Plus I'd have saved more money, and probably my sanity...

I hope that helps - as always, I'm not trying to put anyone off - just be real and paint an honest portrait of the downsides as well as the shiny upsides of 'law' at 'oxbridge'. :smile:

Reply 10

Miniboris

Hi FebruaryFace,Second year KCL undergrad student here :smile:

I recently started considering to apply for either GDL or Oxbridge Senior Status Law.Reading these posts I wanted to say that they are not only very informative, and well written but also have a nice touch of humour to it. Well done! You should write a little handbook on the matter. Maybe into Oxford's 'Very Short Introductions' series - after graduation of course :smile:

. I would absolutely read it.Hope you will be still around here, when I get the application freak. Best!

Reply 11

OP

Original post by Miniboris

Hi FebruaryFace,Second year KCL undergrad student here :smile:

I recently started considering to apply for either GDL or Oxbridge Senior Status Law.Reading these posts I wanted to say that they are not only very informative, and well written but also have a nice touch of humour to it. Well done! You should write a little handbook on the matter. Maybe into Oxford's 'Very Short Introductions' series - after graduation of course :smile:

. I would absolutely read it.Hope you will be still around here, when I get the application freak. Best!

Well thank you! I'm glad you've found it informative thus far - if you have any questions I'm happy to help (although, apologies, sometimes during term time my speed of response is a bit sub-par...) :smile:

Good luck with second year!

Reply 12

Miniboris

Original post by FebruaryFace

Well thank you! I'm glad you've found it informative thus far - if you have any questions I'm happy to help (although, apologies, sometimes during term time my speed of response is a bit sub-par...) :smile:

Good luck with second year!

Haha, thank you! Good luck, and keep the strong drive! 🍀

Reply 13

bullseye1997

3

Hi!Congrats on securing a place at Oxford!I wish to apply for senior status jurisprudence at Oxford. I am an engineering undergrad at Edinburgh university. Question!How are you funding this?! Oxford states there are no scholarships or government funding for a second undergrad degree :frown:

Reply 14

discerevolo

Original post by FebruaryFace

Hi

So, turns out you can only apply to one. I applied to Oxford, because they don't charge second BA students college fees (whereas Cambridge usually does). It also just felt like a better fit for me. I got an offer in January, and I'll actually be starting next week. :smile:

If you have any questions, do ask. I'm a pro at the process now! (well, ish).

Hi, quick question about this, why is it that you can only apply to one? Do the same rules apply as when you put in an application for undergraduate degrees?

Reply 15

OP

Original post by discerevolo

Hi, quick question about this, why is it that you can only apply to one? Do the same rules apply as when you put in an application for undergraduate degrees?

Yup! Same rules apply. It's to prevent good enough candidates (almost inevitably) getting offers from both. This would mean fewer applicants got offered a place, and the universities would have a high margin of error when working out how many people they gave offers to were likely to accept.

Reply 16

cervac

2

@FebruaryFace

Hi there,   I stumbled across your post here a while back and first off want to thank you for being so candid and informative, and taking the time to share your experience with others online. It’s been really enlightening for me reading your posts! I feel I’m in a similar situation to yours two years ago…. I’d like to apply to Law but unsure of where I would take the degree only that I feel very passionate about the subject, which is part of the appeal about Oxbridge, a bottom-up approach feels like the right fit. I have an undergrad and masters behind me, so the senior status appeals to me…. reading your previous posts it sounds like a heck of a lot of work though.

I have a couple questions… feel free to answer or not answer whatever you like, I appreciate any insight at all you can share with me.

  1. It’s said that the senior status Law is more competitive than the normal BA Law. The times I’ve spoken with the department I was counselled to apply to either but emphasize I would be willing to accept an offer for the other. Did you apply to senior status and nothing else? Or did you also disclose that you’d be willing to do the 3-year route? What would you advise yourself in hindsight? Was the trade off of back-breaking work for an earlier graduation worth it in the end'?

  2. Knowing what you know now, a word of advice on choosing a college? Especially with regards to being a mature student. And on that note, has it been difficult fitting in as a mature student? Do you find yourself more isolated from campus life? Has it been easy (enough) to find similar students to yourself, or was that added work given that the majority of students are just starting their first undergrad?  

3. Applying as a mature student, did you use professors from your graduate degree for your reference(s)? Do you think admissions was looking more at your secondary school marks, or more recent marks from your masters? Or rather, looking very holistically at it all? My marks are high, but not straight 90s (Canadian university grading system uses a percentage out of a 100)

  4. As a mature student, in the interview/personal statement: I’m not so presumptuous to assume I will make it to interview, but in the interest of covering my bases…. Although nobody has told me this, it’s a personal hunch that the particular difficulty of interview (and this maybe extends to the personal statement as well) for a mature student would be balancing previous experience/grades/accomplishments with the necessary open-mindedness/flexibility for an undergraduate degree. I wonder if interviewers/tutors have different expectations for mature students versus younger ones in that they expect you have a bit more direction/knowledge….? That could be off the mark though. Could you speak to that? Did you tend to lean on one side or the other during your interview?  

5. Any thoughts or advice on the LNAT you’d like to share?

6. Looking back on it, what would you tell yourself now applying?   

A big sorry in advance for the flood of questions, even if you don’t answer any at all thank you anyways for coming back to this forum and helping others like myself, it’s really helped me!

Reply 17

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