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Muslim sues school for asking her not to wear burka on premises

Reply 240

popo111

10

Original post by Moonstruck16

Shame that I didn't actually report the twit

At least your amygdala is still working.

Reply 241

Moonstruck16

5

Original post by popo111

Nope, I thought exactly what you wrote, which was you were inclined to. And yet you continue with your drivel.

I would make another joke on the last bit but don't want to "offend" you.

Keep going sweetie - you're funny 😊

Reply 242

QE2

20

Original post by HotDetermination

FGM is an entirely different case, as that has many implications. The burka is simply a piece of clothing that Muslim women wear: it's how we perceive it that's resulted in this unnecessary stigma. It doesn't explicitly bring harm to anyone.

No, the issue is simply... should there be exemptions to otherwise universal laws or rules simply because or "religious reasons"?

If your answer is "yes", then you will need to explain why, and which "religious reasons" are acceptable and which aren't, because you seem to be saying that not all "religious reasons" are legitimate cause for granting exemptions, in which case, it would appear that what is acceptable in religion is decided by man - which seems to utterly defeat the object of religion!

Yes, visitors should be made to remove face coverings when entering a school.

I agree.

Rules don't have to be the same for everyone:

Yes they do!! It is called "equality" and is an essential element of a fair society!

for people who wear religious clothing should never be made to take off what is extremely important to them.

But didn't you just say "Yes, visitors should be made to remove face coverings when entering a school."
Now you are saying that they shouldn't!
I'm sure you don't need me to point out how illogical and unworkable your proposed system is?

Yes, logically it seems unfair but in practice it will make sense.

You'll have to explain how, because if some people are allowed to circumvent rules simply by claiming to be special, what you are proposing is inequality and discrimination.

Why should someone be allowed to wear a bandana? Does this have sacred religious connotations? If not, they should be made to take it off.

If they use the bandana to cover their face, then yes, they should be required to remove it.

And remember that no one is forcing anyone to remove their face covering. They can keep it on simply by choosing not to enter the building that requires them to remove it. They just have to decide which is more important, the face covering or the thing they want to do in said building.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 243

QE2

20

Original post by HotDetermination

An insensitive comment isn't going to help us here. Yes, it's cultural so let them partake in their culture. We don't need to complicate this: it's their choice what they do with themselves and exceptions will be made when it comes to religion.

You still seem to be having trouble with the basic concept here.

Wearing a burqa or niqab is personal choice, whether it is religious, cultural or sartorial. The wearer is entirely entitled to wear it. However, if a situation requires the removal of face coverings, it is irrelevant why they are being worn, they must be removed.
In just the same way that the law prohibits FGM, claiming cultural or religious practice is not a reason to relax the rules.

Reply 244

QE2

20

Original post by Retired_Messiah

Sorry since when did schools dictate what a parent wears? If it was actual written policy fair enough, but it wasn't.

I'm sure most schools have no written policy against parents wearing Vendetta masks when on the school premises, but I'm pretty sure that if any did they would be asked to remove them.

Reply 245

Moggadeet

Original post by Cubone-r

For the same reason no one is allowed to walk into a bank or a store with a helmet or balaclava on, pupils should not be covering up their whole faces in schools to the extent that we cannot identify them. We are not telling her what she can and cannot wear, we are telling her to follow the laws and practices of the society in which she lives.

So according to this logic, you should practise what you preach by respecting the laws and practices of a Muslim society should you ever proceed to present yourself in one, yes? Of course, that entirely depends on your general understanding of the Muslim communtiy's identity, which in this case wearing a headscarf and such for the woman and respectively conservative outfit for the men? And by you I mean the general community that practices the idea of respecting the value of law and practice of a society as a norm

Reply 246

Moura

18

Original post by astutehirstute

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-mother-london-school-face-veil-ban-daughter-niqab-holland-park-rachida-serroukh-a7852396.html

This woman is a vexatious litigant, what a waste of the court's time. If she wins her lawyer will be enriched as will she, and the public purse impoverished. To what good end?

The more incidents there are like this, the more the division grows between non Muslims and non non Muslims.

Many will feel If she is so unhappy with this, why doesn't she go and live in a country where she would be forced to wear a burka anyway? Like Afghanistan?

she feels the school is opressing her religious freedom and we should all thank our lucky starts that she has the freedom to challenge the school legally, even if we may not agree with her.

so you frown so much upon forcing someone to wear something... but it's totally ok for us to force someone not to wear something?

i strongly disagree with the burka and what it represents but it is not for us to ban by law (or in school rules). you stop people wearing it through rational talk and changing their opinions on the equality of women... not by removing their freedoms (the freedom we are so lucky to have) and banning them from wearing it, making them feel angry, marginalised and victimised (rightly so). it's not just an item of clothing to them, like a hoodie or a motorbike helmet or balaclava... it's an extremely important piece of their culture and religion.

Reply 247

astutehirstute

OP

11

Original post by Moura

she feels the school is opressing her religious freedom and we should all thank our lucky starts that she has the freedom to challenge the school legally, even if we may not agree with her.

so you frown so much upon forcing someone to wear something... but it's totally ok for us to force someone not to wear something?
.

Your first point is a straw man, utterly irrelevant. I didn't say she shouldn't have the freedom to challenge the school legally (we don't want to live under a totalitarian, freedom destroying legal system like they have in, say, Saudi Arabia, after all) but that I hoped it would be unsuccessful as it is an immense waste of the court's time.

To your second, you talk as if it is odd to oppose men forcing women to dress up in sacks with slits to see through. It really isn't.

Don't you "frown upon it" too?

There is no contradiction in my position. If you had taken the trouble to read my posts you would know that I oppose a legal ban on the burka, everywhere and anywhere. I argue for it to be subject to extreme social disapproval, to be "frowned upon."

And for schools to be able to impose a ban on Burkas on school premises, both on the grounds mentioned by others, but also as part of this social disapproval.

Reply 248

Cubone-r

21

Original post by Moggadeet

So according to this logic, you should practise what you preach by respecting the laws and practices of a Muslim society should you ever proceed to present yourself in one, yes? Of course, that entirely depends on your general understanding of the Muslim communtiy's identity, which in this case wearing a headscarf and such for the woman and respectively conservative outfit for the men? And by you I mean the general community that practices the idea of respecting the value of law and practice of a society as a norm

Well yes, of course, if I was ever to go to a Muslim majority country then I would respect their way of life.. That goes without saying. When in Rome...

Reply 249

Ladymusiclover

20

Original post by Nuba123

no then it wouldn't be an ID

Exactly!

Reply 250

astutehirstute

OP

11

Original post by nulli tertius

The point is that that it is not forbidden generally, she is entitled to wear what she pleases provided she does not offend against laws on decency etc, simply because it is a free country, and the school as a public body is only entitled to do regulate what she wears on their premises so long as it is lawful and reasonable.

The key point is that almost certainly there was no policy about face coverings until someone tried to tell her that she was in breach of it. That is likely to be fatal to the school's position.

It surely is lawful and reasonable for the school to regulate her wearing the burka on its premises, sigh.

Not having this as a school policy and then trying to enforce it however may well be unlawful as you say. So she may win on a legal technicality.

Whoopy Doo. So she wins, the lawyers win, the public who have to pay legal costs and damages loses, she makes her political point AND enriches herself all because of some arcane legal point.

Whoever said the law was an ass? :rolleyes:

Reply 251

nulli tertius

21

Original post by astutehirstute

It surely is lawful and reasonable for the school to regulate her wearing the burka on its premises, sigh.

It may be lawful but it isn't "surely" lawful.

The first question is why are you doing it? Is it security, or because it is setting a poor example of the role of women or because it is un-English or Un-Christian or because it frightens the little ones? Those reasons don't cummulate. If one reason is inadequate, you cannot boost it with a completely different one.

Let us assume that you decide it is "security". There is clearly a legitimate concern about this. Is banning the burka, a reasonable response to a legitimate concern about security? That is fact specific.

Are we banning her from wandering around the school buildings unsupervised, or would she never be able to do that whatever she was wearing?

Are we saying that she is not allowed to wear a burka whilst supervised? Why? Why can't the security concern be addressed by having her show her face against some form of photo ID in private with a female? That is what prisons, immigration offices and passport control do. Why should a school apply more stringent security measures.

Are we in fact verifying the ID of accompanied visitors other than burka wearers at all? If we are taking their indentity at mere assertion, what are we adding by seeing a possible imposter's face?

Are we banning her from areas, such as where parents wait to meet children, where we don't check identity? Why.

There is a real possibility of not doing a genuine assesment of the various risks from outsiders on school premises, but instead a school may be straining at a gnat while ignoring elephants. For example, banning the burka from an indentified female parent whilst allowing unidentified and unauthenticated male tradesmen access to a school site may well be seen as discriminatory. You have to look at the overall security policy and to impose hyper-security when it comes to Muslim mothers that isn't imposed in relation to others, it likely to be held unreasonable.

For example when I visit a school professionally, I never have to prove my identity but I am never unaccompanied and I never meet children. In that context, is a burka ban reasonable?

Reply 252

Retired_Messiah

21

Original post by QE2

I'm sure most schools have no written policy against parents wearing Vendetta masks when on the school premises, but I'm pretty sure that if any did they would be asked to remove them.

Except she'd apparently had no problems with school security before, and the teachers on the premises most likely roughly knew who she was. There's no reason to not be allowed it when you're supervised and they know who you are, assuming security is the motivation behind telling her to sod off.