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"Bring on Oxbridge quotas"
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Original post by nulli tertius
The key problem, which I think everyone identifies, is getting people to apply. If the comp kid believes all the places go to clones of BoJo, he may well not apply. If he believes there is an interview quota essentially reserved for people like him, he may do so.
...
The problem with leniency is that it doesn't help with applications. It merely addresses the fact that the colleges have very little margin for error over their finances. If the sums work on 110 undergraduates, they cannot take 105 or 115.
...
The problem with leniency is that it doesn't help with applications. It merely addresses the fact that the colleges have very little margin for error over their finances. If the sums work on 110 undergraduates, they cannot take 105 or 115.
I take the point, but if the candidate is sufficiently informed to know that there is a quota for people in his position to participate in the application process then he might also be expected to know the details I mentioned.
I grant that leniency doesn't help applications. I was agreeing with you, just making the point that it doesn't require such a large change in approach to get us where you want us to be.
Original post by DFranklin
For maths at Cambridge, A*A* in M/FM is essentially a formality (it's extremely rare that anyone with a realistic chance of getting 11 in STEP is going to have issues getting these grades). So it's really only one A* that "you have to work hard for".
Not saying it's not a high offer, but it's not as crazy high as it sounds.
Worst case the STEP offer was SS, which is certainly harsh (but not unheard of), however:
It's reasonably common to get in having missed your STEP grades (I think about 30% do so). From a college's point of view, it's nice to set the offer high and be able to do a bit of final 'pick-and-choose' once the dust settles on the STEP results. So a harsh STEP offer may not be as bad as it sounds either.
Not saying it's not a high offer, but it's not as crazy high as it sounds.
Worst case the STEP offer was SS, which is certainly harsh (but not unheard of), however:
It's reasonably common to get in having missed your STEP grades (I think about 30% do so). From a college's point of view, it's nice to set the offer high and be able to do a bit of final 'pick-and-choose' once the dust settles on the STEP results. So a harsh STEP offer may not be as bad as it sounds either.
Hmm, there was something funny about it, I can't remember exactly what. It might have been that the candidate only had AS level further maths. I'm fairly sure there was an A* attaching to more than one non-maths subject anyway. I think the STEP offer was S1, possibly SS; don't know how strictly it was enforced because I don't know how much she missed it by.
Anyway my point was just that they do sometimes set variable targets.
Original post by nulli tertius
(Q5 applicant is roughly 9.5 times more likely to get AAA, 10.5 times more likely to apply). [From: http://dera.ioe.ac.uk/22198/1/HEFE2015_03.pdf]
Note also that when you track this to getting offers (acceptance), the ratio rises to 14.6 (15.1). [From: https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2014_cycle.pdf]
From my own experience, I'd say the inability of comprehensive schools (particularly in low performing areas) to push students to the necessary standards (*), and also to prepare them for the application process sufficiently in advance are the two biggest issues (**).
(*) From what I saw (in a reasonably decent comprehensive), there was far too much complacency that "oh, you're brilliant, you'll get in. And they test for raw ability, there's no real point in preparing".
(**) I think it's relatively easy for a high-achiever to 'coast' through the lower 6th, comfortable in the fact they are clearly a way ahead of anyone else in their class. September in application year is not an ideal time to be realising this.
<SlightlyOTRant>: TSR's promoting of the Oxford MAT prep test the day before the exam is more than slightly ridiculous to my mind. How much prep can you do 24 hours before the exam...?
Original post by unknown_usr
The problem (bad schools) should be treated, rather than the symptom (socioeconomic imbalance at top unis)
(a) It may not be treatable or not treatable in a way that it is politically acceptable. School success is heavily related to parental commitment to education. Improving schools requires committed parents to be trapped with poor schools. That is why education in London has recovered from its parlous position yet schools in the poorer parts of rural England have not. Faced with a severe shortage of good state schools in inner London, a severe shortage of day places in London independent schools and an unwillingness to send children to board in provincial independent schools, committed parents have had no option but to put effort into improving sink schools.
(b) The timescales for doing anything worthwhile means many cohorts of children are left in the mire.
Essentially "fix some other problem" is in reality always an excuse for doing nothing. "I am sorry Mr Chamberlain, you shouldn't have let the Germans re-arm, we can't go to war" isn't an answer.
Original post by DFranklin
Pardon me if this has been debunked earlier in the thread (I kind of lost track), but my understanding is that the discrepancy between number of quintile-5 applicants and the number of quntile-1 applicants closely follows the proportion getting AAA at A-level.
(Q5 applicant is roughly 9.5 times more likely to get AAA, 10.5 times more likely to apply). [From: http://dera.ioe.ac.uk/22198/1/HEFE2015_03.pdf]
Note also that when you track this to getting offers (acceptance), the ratio rises to 14.6 (15.1). [From: https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2014_cycle.pdf]
From my own experience, I'd say the inability of comprehensive schools (particularly in low performing areas) to push students to the necessary standards (*), and also to prepare them for the application process sufficiently in advance are the two biggest issues (**).
(*) From what I saw (in a reasonably decent comprehensive), there was far too much complacency that "oh, you're brilliant, you'll get in. And they test for raw ability, there's no real point in preparing".
(**) I think it's relatively easy for a high-achiever to 'coast' through the lower 6th, comfortable in the fact they are clearly a way ahead of anyone else in their class. September in application year is not an ideal time to be realising this.
<SlightlyOTRant>: TSR's promoting of the Oxford MAT prep test the day before the exam is more than slightly ridiculous to my mind. How much prep can you do 24 hours before the exam...?
(Q5 applicant is roughly 9.5 times more likely to get AAA, 10.5 times more likely to apply). [From: http://dera.ioe.ac.uk/22198/1/HEFE2015_03.pdf]
Note also that when you track this to getting offers (acceptance), the ratio rises to 14.6 (15.1). [From: https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2014_cycle.pdf]
From my own experience, I'd say the inability of comprehensive schools (particularly in low performing areas) to push students to the necessary standards (*), and also to prepare them for the application process sufficiently in advance are the two biggest issues (**).
(*) From what I saw (in a reasonably decent comprehensive), there was far too much complacency that "oh, you're brilliant, you'll get in. And they test for raw ability, there's no real point in preparing".
(**) I think it's relatively easy for a high-achiever to 'coast' through the lower 6th, comfortable in the fact they are clearly a way ahead of anyone else in their class. September in application year is not an ideal time to be realising this.
<SlightlyOTRant>: TSR's promoting of the Oxford MAT prep test the day before the exam is more than slightly ridiculous to my mind. How much prep can you do 24 hours before the exam...?
I don't think it has been said. I suspect there is some truth in it but I think the Jude the Obscure, "Oxford isn't for the likes of thee" approach is more common.
They may morph from one to the other. How many Oxbridge "shoo ins" have to fail before a teaching staff becomes disillusioned with applying
Original post by nulli tertius
I don't think it has been said. I suspect there is some truth in it but I think the Jude the Obscure, "Oxford isn't for the likes of thee" approach is more common.
It's not just Oxbridge - there's a strong north/south divide in university. Moving "down south" for any university is tricky (I've seen students tweeting this week about how they're struggling with some aspects of moving from the north to the south that are exactly the sort of thing that put off lots of students).
Universities in the south are a lot more regional than most people imagine (look at Bristol's intake map http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007786.pdf or UEA http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007789.pdf or Surrey http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007160.pdf or Southampton http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007158.pdf or Reading http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007802.pdf compared to Leeds http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007795.pdf (or any midlands/northern university)) - ONS did a series of reports about how students move south > north for university and then move back (but not the other way round)
Original post by PQ
It's not just Oxbridge
This was my point really - in general people do not like long travel distances, no matter how prestigious the institution. Thanks for the maps, though they are mis-labelled in some cases. And I'm unconvinced that the cost of such travel is much of a factor. The difficulty, tediousness and time are more important, I suspect.
Original post by J-SP
Students are not as geographically mobile as people think. Those that are more geographically mobile will typically be from higher income families, where the cost of moving is less of a barrier.
Students are not as geographically mobile as people think. Those that are more geographically mobile will typically be from higher income families, where the cost of moving is less of a barrier.
Are you suggesting that people actually move house to be nearer their child's university? I have never met anyone who has.
Original post by PQ
Universities in the south are a lot more regional than most people imagine (look at Bristol's intake map http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007786.pdf or UEA http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007789.pdf or Surrey http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007160.pdf or Southampton http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007158.pdf or Reading http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007802.pdf compared to Leeds http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007795.pdf (or any midlands/northern university)) - ONS did a series of reports about how students move south > north for university and then move back (but not the other way round)
Yes and I'm sure there's a more interactive presention of this data somewhere (i.e. click on a university on a map to see the hot spots for that university) but I can't for the life of me find it now.
Original post by Doonesbury
Yes and I'm sure there's a more interactive presention of this data somewhere (i.e. click on a university on a map to see the hot spots for that university) but I can't for the life of me find it now.
Hefce used to have something but it was based on local authorities and not individual universities. So all HE providers in a LA region were collated.
* http://www.hefce.ac.uk/analysis/maps/mobility/
The regions were v large
The regions were v large
Original post by PQ
Hefce used to have something but it was based on local authorities and not individual universities. So all HE providers in a LA region were collated.
Original post by PQ
Thanks, but I'm sure I saw something else - but maybe I'm making it up...
My brain is remembering it as a presentation by a couple of scottish academics. oh well...
Original post by Doonesbury
Thanks, but I'm sure I saw something else - but maybe I'm making it up...
My brain is remembering it as a presentation by a couple of scottish academics. oh well...
My brain is remembering it as a presentation by a couple of scottish academics. oh well...
There’s lots of university developed things along those lines. And I think there’s something in heidiplus but not in the public domain iirr.
Original post by PQ
It's not just Oxbridge - there's a strong north/south divide in university. Moving "down south" for any university is tricky (I've seen students tweeting this week about how they're struggling with some aspects of moving from the north to the south that are exactly the sort of thing that put off lots of students).
I can see the age gap growing.
When I wrote what I did, I saw my comments in terms of class but not geography. Jude is a Berkshire (within Wessex in Hardy's world) man. I can remember when working class townies in Oxford spoke in a gentle Mummerset burr. That burr is still spoken in Dorchester-on-Thames (not Dorchester Dorset) about as far from any madding crowd as it is possible to get. I suspect for the present generation, Oxford is a city of Received Pronunciation and Pidgin English only.
Original post by Good bloke
If. That is a big word. I think it far more likely that such people would have got there no matter what school they attended.
A comforting argument, but the facts are against it being correct - a relatively short list of schools reliably dominate the bulk of the UK-student admission charts. Logic suggests it isn't entirely down to personal achievement or capability, relative to the bigger picture of the national student body.
Original post by PQ
It's not just Oxbridge - there's a strong north/south divide in university. Moving "down south" for any university is tricky (I've seen students tweeting this week about how they're struggling with some aspects of moving from the north to the south that are exactly the sort of thing that put off lots of students).
Universities in the south are a lot more regional than most people imagine (look at Bristol's intake map http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007786.pdf or UEA http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007789.pdf or Surrey http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007160.pdf or Southampton http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007158.pdf or Reading http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007802.pdf compared to Leeds http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007795.pdf (or any midlands/northern university)) - ONS did a series of reports about how students move south > north for university and then move back (but not the other way round)
Universities in the south are a lot more regional than most people imagine (look at Bristol's intake map http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007786.pdf or UEA http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007789.pdf or Surrey http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007160.pdf or Southampton http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007158.pdf or Reading http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007802.pdf compared to Leeds http://www.hefce.ac.uk/media/HEFCE,2014/Content/Learning,and,teaching/TEF/TEFYearTwo/maps/TEFYearTwoMaps_10007795.pdf (or any midlands/northern university)) - ONS did a series of reports about how students move south > north for university and then move back (but not the other way round)
We see this very strongly at QMUL, which has a high E. London bias in intake.
Given the national status of Oxbridge, it might make sense to reduce regional bias by opening branch colleges in the regions, coupled with aggressive methods of selection - for example, nominating target students in under-represented regions and schools to come to Oxbridge interview, rather than awaiting applications passively - and then making huge efforts to encourage them to follow through with travel bursaries, personalised help and support, etc.
Imo, no.
Academia has no skin colour, it's about hard work and ability. If I was an admissions tutor and I could only accept 5 out of 100 candidates, and if it just so happened that the only two black candidates didn't give a strong performance in interview, it would be fair to reject them, had everyone else's interviews been stronger. That has nothing to do with race, it is to do with academic ability and response to my questions/pre-reading etc. In my opinion, quotas shouldn't be set in place because it will only focus on diversity rather than equality. Insisting an obligatory 20% quota of black students for every course takes the focus away from the black students' work and it will mean they got in because they were black. From the other side, it will hinder the other applicants' chance of getting an offer, and that links back to what I said. If in a specific situation, the only black students of the lot didn't give strong performances in interview, then it is only reasonable to reject them. Just like if a white person in this instance didn't give a strong interview, it would be perfectly reasonable to reject them. The focus on diversity in academia should be set much earlier. Given black people in the UK tend to be poorer, especially in London, there should be more done in primary schools and secondary schools to make not only black people, but any group, aware of what they could go on to do. Both of my sisters are strikingly intelligent, A* grade students, and one of them was accepted into Oxford for Maths and is now in their 3rd year. We are mixed race (Afro-Caribbean and white British), and my sister wasn't accepted because she was mixed race, but she realised her academic potential at an early age. Now, speaking of being poor, we are even poorer than everyone in London, we're from the North East and were state school educated (my sisters earned scholarships at a local private school). Anyway, I've rambled on a bit, but the point is, no, don't put diversity in place now! Put it in earlier in life!
Academia has no skin colour, it's about hard work and ability. If I was an admissions tutor and I could only accept 5 out of 100 candidates, and if it just so happened that the only two black candidates didn't give a strong performance in interview, it would be fair to reject them, had everyone else's interviews been stronger. That has nothing to do with race, it is to do with academic ability and response to my questions/pre-reading etc. In my opinion, quotas shouldn't be set in place because it will only focus on diversity rather than equality. Insisting an obligatory 20% quota of black students for every course takes the focus away from the black students' work and it will mean they got in because they were black. From the other side, it will hinder the other applicants' chance of getting an offer, and that links back to what I said. If in a specific situation, the only black students of the lot didn't give strong performances in interview, then it is only reasonable to reject them. Just like if a white person in this instance didn't give a strong interview, it would be perfectly reasonable to reject them. The focus on diversity in academia should be set much earlier. Given black people in the UK tend to be poorer, especially in London, there should be more done in primary schools and secondary schools to make not only black people, but any group, aware of what they could go on to do. Both of my sisters are strikingly intelligent, A* grade students, and one of them was accepted into Oxford for Maths and is now in their 3rd year. We are mixed race (Afro-Caribbean and white British), and my sister wasn't accepted because she was mixed race, but she realised her academic potential at an early age. Now, speaking of being poor, we are even poorer than everyone in London, we're from the North East and were state school educated (my sisters earned scholarships at a local private school). Anyway, I've rambled on a bit, but the point is, no, don't put diversity in place now! Put it in earlier in life!
Original post by EdGal
I don't believe that Oxbridge should have to bring in quotas, the best people should be accepted no matter where they are from.
However I think a good idea would be for Oxbridge, and other top universities, to run more programmes in state schools or deprived areas to 'train' those people and give them a better chance of being accepted into one of the elite universities. For example they could introduce many more workshops, application/interview training, holiday schools etc.
However I think a good idea would be for Oxbridge, and other top universities, to run more programmes in state schools or deprived areas to 'train' those people and give them a better chance of being accepted into one of the elite universities. For example they could introduce many more workshops, application/interview training, holiday schools etc.
Who are the 'best people' though? Surely not just those who go to Private schools because they have wealthy parents?
It's well documented that state school pupils tend to do better at uni that their A level grades would suggest so the current system is flawed.
Totally agree with this. Equality of opportunity does not mean equality of outcome. The latter should be related to competence!
(edited 4 years ago)
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