US church shooter was ‘creepy atheist” who disliked religious people

Scroll to see replies

Tmost of those things are not permitted / supported in Islam

Every one of them is permitted by this "admirable" religion (the only issue is that using captives for slaves was not classed as "rape" then, but it is now). It is explicit in the Quran and sunnah, in black and white. You've been listening to too many mendacious/misinformed apologists.

and those other things are not in practice today, maybe in a few countries like Saudi Arabia but that's it.

But everything that is permitted in the Quran and sunnah is still permitted. Remember that it is god's final and perfect message. No changes or amendments are possible. What has led to some practices becoming discarded is secular progress, not Islam. Where Islam is the sole authority, such practices still exists.
The reason why Saudi Arabia still continues the medieval barbarity is because the constitution of Saudi Arabia IS the Quran and sunnah!

And you failed to say what "admirable" qualities lead you to excuse allowing slavery, wife-beating and executing homosexuals/apostates/adulterers? (Remember we are talking about the religion, not the behaviour of some Muslims or the way of life modern Islamic states)
Do you likewise insist that Jimmy Savile was "admirable" because of all his charity work? Or do you think that just one instance of child abuse negates all the good bits?

Reply 101

QE2

Original post by Imzy010

well, you could say (/argue) BECAUSE he is an atheist this happened.

Yes, it is possible but the reasoning behind this would be problematical as there is nothing in atheism that can be used as justification for anything.

if he was following a religion then he would know what is right and wrong and would value morals and the sanctity of life and how precious everyone is in the eyes of god...

Yeah, good luck with that argument!

Also, why do atheists not know right from wrong? Atheism is not an ideology that determines such things. A person's morality is determined by other factors.
I am a Liberal Humanist atheist, Stalin was a Marxist-Leninist atheist*, Hitler was a National Socialist atheist*. Do we all share the same morals simply because we are all atheists? Obviously not.

* To all intents and purposes, in this context.

Reply 102

Nathan Scott

Original post by QE2

Why should I?
It was nothing to do with me and atheism is the not-religion of peace. This guy was just following a twisted interpretation of atheism for his own purposes.

Just kidding!
Of course I condemn it. Why wouldn't I?
What possible reason could I have for refusing to condemn a brutal and murderous attack on non-combatants, regardless of who the attacker or victims are?

However, despite your attempt a whataboutery, there is nothing in atheism that can be used to justify the attack, because it is nothing more than a lack of belief in gods. If his actions were motivated by a hatred for religious people, that is due to his own personal beliefs and prejudices. There are no atheist texts or rules or revelations that atheists are obliged to follow that say that non-atheists should be fought until all belief is atheist, or that religious people are the vilest of creatures who deserve harsh punishment if they refuse to submit to atheism, for example.

Reply 103

QE2

Original post by Laissez‒faire

Unlawful eh? I guess the so called 'coalition of the willing' (Mainly United States) were all terrorists.

Lets not get into semantics, I know South Vietnam 'asked' for help but we all know how much weight that holds.

You can't say "let's not get into semantics" while engaging in semantics.

If a military action is carried out after approval by a legitimate government, it is by definition, "lawful". If a suitably empowered body subsequently decides that the action is "unlawful", then it becomes, by definition, unlawful.
The line between what is "right" and "wrong" is in many cases, entirely arbitrary.

Reply 104

yudothis

That photo is nonsense. As if all atheists have the same social and political opinions. What a troll.

Reply 105

QE2

Original post by Nathan Scott

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

Reply 106

Nathan Scott

Original post by QE2

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

Atheism has no morals. Of course every atheist isn't immoral but that doesn't change the fact.

Reply 107

yudothis

Original post by Nathan Scott

Atheism has no morals. Of course every atheist isn't immoral but that doesn't change the fact.

Of course it doesn't. It's not a set of beliefs, or a way of life or anything really. It's simply a term for not believing in god.

However, how you and other religious zealots describe it, is just that - that it is immoral as in "if you were moral you would be believe in god, immoral people are thus atheists".

Intellectually highly dishonest.

Reply 108

Helloworld_95

Original post by Nathan Scott

Atheism has no morals. Of course every atheist isn't immoral but that doesn't change the fact.

One could argue the opposite. The morals of Atheism are hard coded in biology. The morals of religions are for people who need a book to refer to.

Reply 109

QE2

Original post by Nathan Scott

Atheism has no morals. Of course every atheist isn't immoral but that doesn't change the fact.

But "atheism" doesn't claim to have any morals. It is simply a single position on a single issue. It is not an ideology. It has no rules or restrictions or commands.
A person's morality is determined by factors other than their atheism.

So I still don't understand the point you are trying to make.
It's like saying "Fish have no wheels. Of course every fish isn't immobile but that doesn't change the fact".

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 110

Nathan Scott

Original post by QE2

Bad example, cause no fish have wheels :curious:

If atheists have morals, they more than likely align with some religion, they just claim they made the morals up.

Good point, but most moral theories are created by theists and almost always arise from religious ethics

Reply 111

Good bloke

Original post by Nathan Scott

If atheists have morals, they more than likely align with some religion, they just claim they made the morals up.

We do not get our morals from religion for the most part, not even religious people. We get them from society at large (which is where the religions got them from in the first place, though from a previous society). This is demonstrated by the way morals on many issues have changed - homosexuality, divorce, abortion, slavery, the position of women, capital punishment, for instance - away from what big religions say they should be.

Reply 112

username2183667

Original post by QE2

Yes, it is possible but the reasoning behind this would be problematical as there is nothing in atheism that can be used as justification for anything.

Yeah, good luck with that argument!

Also, why do atheists not know right from wrong? Atheism is not an ideology that determines such things. A person's morality is determined by other factors.
I am a Liberal Humanist atheist, Stalin was a Marxist-Leninist atheist*, Hitler was a National Socialist atheist*. Do we all share the same morals simply because we are all atheists? Obviously not.

* To all intents and purposes, in this context.

well i don't fully agree with my argument but i was just trying to put a counter argument your way...

Reply 113

username2183667

Original post by Plantagenet Crown

The devil doesn’t exist. It’s about time people started taking responsibility for their own heinous actions instead of, like children, always blaming some imaginary, evil being.

Obvious troll. You must live under a rock if you think all atheists are immoral, evil murderers etc. All you need is a 10 second google search to find all the horrible things that religious people have done over the millennia, which clearly demonstrates that belief in a deity does not preclude that kind of behaviour. For starters, are you conveniently ignoring all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Muslims?

im not a troll actually..... pretty ignorant of YOU to suggest that simply because i made up a contradicting argument... :eyebrow:

and nowhere did i state ALL atheists.... again ignorant i simply referred to this particular thread about this particular atheist :facepalm:

... of course it doesn't work for all people but i know many people who have never committed a crime even though they were in harsh times and were broke and even when others offered and they had a really good and easy chance to do so but didn't simply because they didn't want to displease God and their religion.... that's the only thing that stopped them... because they felt that it was not right personally due to the way they were brought up (religiously) and they didn't want to go against their religion which also prohibits such crimes. and i also know many people who drifted AWAY and completely changed their bad lifestyle DUE to religion. from crimes and drugs and no limit and regard for anything or anyone but themselves, they changed around due to religion... so in a way, it goes both ways. some people do bad things 'because' of religion... others do good things also 'because' of religion... and as you can see the laws of the land had no effect on them. they didn't care much about the laws of the country JUST 'because' the law said not to do stuff as it was only religion that prevented them. (of course, im not implying this applies or happens to EVERYONE)
'are you conveniently ignoring all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Muslims?'
no... im not actually... just because i didnt talk specifically about it in my post because i was trying to come from a different angle and viewpoint doesn't mean im 'ignoring it' .... :facepalm:

yes terrorist attacks are committed by Muslims.. but they also are committed by Christians and atheists and all members of faith and non-faith.. like the recent terrorist acts that are being committed by the Jews (or Zionists) in Palestine (AGAINST MUSLIMS), ... and the recent terrorist attacks AGAINST Muslims that is happening in Rohingya... are YOU conveniently ignoring the fact that terrorism happens to people of religion more so Muslims ?...

Reply 114

Plantagenet Crown

Original post by Imzy010

im not a troll actually..... pretty ignorant of YOU to suggest that simply because i made up a contradicting argument... :eyebrow:

So you're admitting your own argument is contradictory?

and nowhere did i state ALL atheists.... again ignorant i simply referred to this particular thread about this particular atheist :facepalm:

...

Nonsense! You said that if he had been following a religion he would know the difference between right and wrong and so you are unequivocally implying that atheists don't have morals.

of course it doesn't work for all people

Nice to see you're backtracking.

but i know many people who have never committed a crime even though they were in harsh times and were broke and even when others offered and they had a really good and easy chance to do so but didn't simply because they didn't want to displease God and their religion.... that's the only thing that stopped them...

You realise you're making religious people look bad, don't you? So the only reason you guys aren't going around raping ad murdering is because you're scared and threatened by God. Are you unable to be a good person for its own sake, without the threat of punishment or reward? How is it that most atheists are able to be perfectly decent, moral people without believing in a deity?

because they felt that it was not right personally due to the way they were brought up (religiously) and they didn't want to go against their religion which also prohibits such crimes.

Morals are not at all exclusively extracted from religious texts, virtually everyone grows up with some moral framework, whether that be from religion or from society in general.

'are you conveniently ignoring all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Muslims?'
no... im not actually... just because i didnt talk specifically about it in my post because i was trying to come from a different angle and viewpoint doesn't mean im 'ignoring it' .... :facepalm:

No, I brought up that point because you were implying that religious people would not have committed terror attacks because they know "the sanctity of life and how precious everyone is in the eyes of God".

Reply 115

Laissez‒faire

Original post by Good bloke

Most of the morals we have initially came from Abrahamic religions. We don't think of our culture as Christian but it has been heavily influenced by it.

Reply 116

Good bloke

Original post by Laissez‒faire

Most of the morals we have initially came from Abrahamic religions.

We inherit a lot from the Anglo-Saxons, as well as the Romans and Greeks, pagans all , so don't try to tell us we'd all be murdering people if it weren't for the Bible.

Reply 117

Notoriety

Original post by Laissez‒faire

Most of the morals we have initially came from Abrahamic religions. We don't think of our culture as Christian but it has been heavily influenced by it.

In what regard has our morality been influenced by the Old Testament (remember, that's the Abrahamic bit). Do we stone our children for talking back or kill those who conduct witchcraft? Do we concern ourselves with false idols or kill babies because voices told us do so? I have to confess sometimes I walk down the street, a normal street in this Abrahamic country of ours, and I never see one of those observances. Of course, on other days, the piety is strong and it is difficult not to see judicious beatings.

The Christian parts, loving thy neighbour and turning the other cheek, are pervasive in other religious traditions and there is no reason to say they are particularly "Christian".

Reply 118

Laissez‒faire

Original post by Good bloke

We inherit a lot from the Anglo-Saxons, as well as the Romans and Greeks, pagans all , so don't try to tell us we'd all be murdering people if it weren't for the Bible.

No, but Europe would be a lot more brutal if it didn't have the Abrahamic morals imposed on it initially. Think the master morality of Indians/Chinese instead of 'slave morality' that Muslims and Christians have.

Reply 119

Good bloke

Original post by Laissez‒faire

Eh? There is little more brutal than Abrahamic morality. Slavery, misogyny, barbaric punishments, arbitrary and purposeless prohibitions, child sacrifice, the wiping out of whole populations, intolerance of other beliefs - they all characterise the Abrahamic morality.