Does the gender pay gap exist?

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username1207499

The pay gap is about people doing equivalent work - it doesn't mean there are no inequalities within, for example, STEM.

e.g.
Women engineers earn on average £10k less per year than their male colleagues according to The Engineer’s 2017 salary survey.
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/engineering-salary-survey-reveals-10k-gender-gap/

It is illegal to pay men and women different amounts for the same work. As for averages, take the following graph:

Taking engineers for example, we can assume top engineers require above average intelligence. If we draw a line at anywhere above say g=0.4 as the requirement to be a top engineer, we find a higher number of men compared to women, hence on average men will earn more despite individuals earning the same wage for the same work.

Reply 21

lawlieto

Original post by Muttley79

My aunt did a Maths degree in the 1960s and half her course were women. Just because you don't know anyone is not a proof. There are many female maths teachers in their 50s and retired ones in their 60s and 70s...
You need a wider pool of evidence to state these 'facts' as they are clearly untrue.

Exactly. They're "only" maths teachers, not maths professors at university.

Reply 22

Hirsty97

Original post by Doonesbury

On the link there is no information regarding why. Are we supposed to just infer bias? What if life choices such as choosing to work less hours effect the statistics? Also perhaps it's because men have been working longer from previous generations when there was a palpable bias against women in recruitment and it will take a few decades to play "catch-up"? I'd like to see stats that account for age range.

Perhaps there is still bias but I just don't understand why an employer would choose to pay a woman less if they are just as capable as their male counterpart. It wouldn't make sense, because a skilled female engineer that feels undervalued could just move to another company which would be a mutually beneficial action as she would make more money for her employer.

Reply 23

Hirsty97

Original post by yudothis

Would help. But the best would be for men to stay home with the kids.

You want to decrease the tax base even more?

Reply 24

Doones

Original post by D3LLI5

It is illegal to pay men and women different amounts for the same work. As for averages, take the following graph:

What is g? Unless it's a measure of "general engineering ability" it's not relevant.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 25

TimmonaPortella

This 'equal pay day' is a ludicrous piece of propaganda which thankfully, it seems, a large and growing number of people now see through. Possibly most.

It's another one of those outlandish claims made by the modern left that is so implausible and out of step with people's everyday experiences that it simply serves to undermine its own cause.

Reply 26

Muttley79

Original post by lawlieto

Exactly. They're "only" maths teachers, not maths professors at university.

What do you mean 'only' maths teachers? How disrespectful.

There are plenty of female maths professors - some women [even those with PhDs] prefer to teach not lecture.

Reply 27

username917703

Original post by TimmonaPortella

This 'equal pay day' is a ludicrous piece of propaganda which thankfully, it seems, a large and growing number of people now see through. Possibly most.

Not yet.

Reply 28

yudothis

Original post by Hirsty97

You want to decrease the tax base even more?

Instead of the women...

Original post by Rinsed

They fiddle the statistics to give the worst possible figure. If you compare for jobs on a like-for-like basis young women actually earn slightly more.

The IEA explains well:
https://iea.org.uk/publications/the-gender-pay-gap-a-briefing/

Kate in that link explains it very well, what would happen if men instead of women stay home.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 29

TimmonaPortella

Original post by Wilfred Little

Not yet.

Well, I don't know. I don't have much of an idea at all tbh; I know what I've observed but I've no idea how representative it is around the country and among different age groups etc. I wonder if there are polling data.

Original post by yudothis

Would help. But the best would be for men to stay home with the kids.

That's for couples to work out. It makes sod all difference to anyone else and it's none of anyone else's business anyway.

Reply 30

Doones

Original post by Rinsed

From that report:

"As with previous years, however, this may be partly a result in the difference in seniority among respondents, with 8.8 per cent of women describing themselves as graduates, for example, and 20 per cent as junior engineers, compared to 2.2 per cent and 11.5 per cent of men, respectively."

But let's not let that get in the way of a good headline.

Also from that report:
"Perhaps most concerningly, women at every level of seniority are on average paid less than their male colleagues. For example, at junior level women earn on average £4k less than their male colleagues. The gap widens at director level with women paid on average £20k less."

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Reply 31

lawlieto

Original post by Muttley79

What do you mean 'only' maths teachers? How disrespectful.

There are plenty of female maths professors - some women [even those with PhDs] prefer to teach not lecture.

It's not disrespectful, being a maths teacher at lower level is not intellectually challenging as opposed to becoming a professor, and "plenty of female maths professors" actually means not that many academics in maths compared to how many men there are... (Also, the difference between being a teacher/professor is not teach/lecture, what I meant is that mathematicians do "active research" whatever they call it in maths, and a university probably pays that better than a secondary school paying for teaching).

I'm not saying women are more stupid (I'm also a woman). But having kids is more time-consuming when you're a woman and it's hard to match that with an academic (and a better paying) job. It's one of the reasons why I don't want kids.

Reply 32

Doones

Original post by lawlieto

Most academics are not that well paid. You don't go into academia, or frankly, teaching just for the money.

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Reply 33

username1207499

Original post by Doonesbury

What is g? Unless it's a measure of "general engineering ability" it's not relevant.

It’s the same as IQ and has been shown to have a clear correlation with income, irrespective of gender.

Reply 34

Doones

Original post by D3LLI5

It’s the same as IQ and has been shown to have a clear correlation with income, irrespective of gender.

Has it indeed. Does all IQ research agree with that?

Reply 35

Yaboi

Original post by D3LLI5

It’s the same as IQ and has been shown to have a clear correlation with income, irrespective of gender.

What does it stand for

Reply 36

Joep95

If women get paid whatever % less than men why don’t companies just hire women?
The only possible answers are:
Women are less productive
There is no gap
Companies don’t care about profits

Reply 37

sr90

Volunteer Team

My company works off pay scales & grades where your pay increases slightly in line with performance, what roles you can perform, your value to the team etc. So everyone will earn a slightly different salary - e.g if you're a grade X your pay bracket is 27-34k.

If you add all the mens salaries together and all the womens salaries together, there would almost certainly be a bias in favour of men or women. Does that mean my company is deliberately paying one gender less? Of course not, otherwise they'd only hire that gender.

Another point that nobody mentions is that a lot of women will be content in their current roles because it's easy, stable work and it allows them to provide for their family. If you've been at the same place for years, you're earning good money and your partner is as well, there's little need to look for another job. Why take the risk of spending less time with your kids or the chance of failing probation? I know this is gender stereotyping a bit and i'm sure men get affected by this too, but if you look in any non management job most of the "lifers" will be women.

Reply 38

Notoriety

Original post by joecphillips

If women get paid whatever % less than men why don’t companies just hire women?
The only possible answers are:
Women are less productive
There is no gap
Companies don’t care about profits

Do you actually think that reasoning makes sense?

Reply 39

Muttley79

Original post by lawlieto

You are wrong lecturing is relatively simple - a few lectures a wekk with studnet who want to learn.

Teaching maths - classes of 30 and students that sometimes want to be somewhere else. [Think bottom set Year 10 for 90 minutes on a Friday afternoon] You have to inspire them and prepare really good lessons to engage their interest. You need to think of different ways to help students understand - just as demanding as at a uni. Every student I teach has to make good progress - unis aren't accountable like that.
I think teachers are actually better paid than uni academics.