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Catholicism and the far right in Britain

Firstly I’m centre left in politics and have always sympathised with Catholicism and had admiration for their religion. I have always seen that Catholicism is more of a left leaning religion of compassion, honesty and tolerance. I’m not a committed catholic but do sympathise with it, after all Britain was a catholic country before the 1500s.


But there are some things I can’t get my head around or understand.
Esther McVey is one example, she’s a catholic with Irish roots. Yet she is clearly a hardline far right politician, who is prepared to serve in a Tory party which works alongside the DUP which is opposed to Catholicism in NI and oppresses the people of NI.
While Catholicism is a tolerant compassionate religion, McVey by contrast is a prime example of incompasionate right wing extreme ideology alongside her erstwhile counterpart Ian Duncan Smith a Scottish born Catholic who terrorised the Sick, disabled and poor. Not exactly a good example for the catholic church.
McVey is back, But is by her choice to terrorise the sick and disabled and launch a pogrom of hate? Or is it the choice of Theresa May whom as much as I loathe doesn’t come across as a far right politician, although she is a vicars daughter, she is responsible for the appointment of McVey the legacy of harm and misery that is gonna be inflicted on the most vulnerable in society.

There are some things that are just totally beyond me trying to grasp. How can people call themselves Christians but yet be so ruthless on the sick and vulnerable who can’t fight back? Is Catholicism more aligned with the right or left? A difficult question seen as Irish republicanism has always had a Marxist slant. Or is it that people like McVey betray her own religion and roots. Much like IDS does.

I guess some things are not clear cut. Please can someone explain what is going on, because I’m damned if I know.

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Reply 1
Avatar for Wōden
Wōden
15
Original post by Ambitious1999
While Catholicism is a tolerant compassionate religion


'Tolerance' and 'compassion' are most certainly not the words that spring to mind when I think of Irish Catholicism.....
Reply 2
Avatar for jbrdodd
jbrdodd
20
From what I’ve learnt, catholicism is right winged due to the Irish in the 1800s, for example, people from the land league did the phoenix park murders which murdered a former minister, so they were seen as rather radical.
Here we go again.

When are you lot ever going to learn that it's your brain dead rhetoric that makes people completely switch off from your core message?

"Tories are all evil and want to kill the poor / terrorise the sick and disabled / destroy the NHS"

People look around and they don't see the poor getting murdered, the sick and disabled getting terrorised, or the NHS being destroyed - regardless of how much you might scream and shout that it's happening. It's not.

If you just stopped painting everything as an existential crisis, you'd go so much further. Nobody believes it.
Original post by Trinculo
Here we go again.

When are you lot ever going to learn that it's your brain dead rhetoric that makes people completely switch off from your core message?

"Tories are all evil and want to kill the poor / terrorise the sick and disabled / destroy the NHS"

People look around and they don't see the poor getting murdered, the sick and disabled getting terrorised, or the NHS being destroyed - regardless of how much you might scream and shout that it's happening. It's not.

If you just stopped painting everything as an existential crisis, you'd go so much further. Nobody believes it.



I find it rather strange that you condemn your opponents for existentialism while at the same time accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being a terrorist loving anti-semite.
Okay you have posed several questions throughout this so I will try my best to answer them...
1) The left/rightness of Catholicism often depends on the country. In the US Catholics vote predominantly Democrat. In Ireland however, they are predominantly right wing.
2) The official teaching of the Church is very rigid, and doesn’t leave a great deal of room for interpretation (as authority is through the Church tradition not the Bible) They are against women as priests (due to apostolic succession) but will accept women in other authority roles. They are predominantly against abortion in all circumstances bar an ectopic pregnancy (where they use double effect to get around it). They don’t allow for divorce etc. And do hold some fundamental beliefs on gay marriage and transgender. This is mainly bible founded, but is evolving - all be it very slowly.
Interpretation of the Bible can go in very different ways, fundamentalists believe the word exactly as it is written, liberal Christians will look at the Bible more analytically and try to see what the text meant at the time. And everything in between.
3) Catholicism does promote social liberalism in the welfare system, and is a massive encourager of charity.
4) It is also very dependant on the specific church you belong to, some are more accepting or fundamental than others.
5) Catholics are a type of Christians, there are many branches of Protestantism, Evangelicalism, Lutheranism etc which you should also look into. Catholicism is usually seen as a more right wing section on the hermeneutical continuum.
6) The main teachings which make Catholics different are transubstantiation (the spirit of Jesus actually enters the consecrated bread and wine, it is not just symbolic. Mary is the immaculate conception (she was born without sin). The priests and bishops have a heightened role. (There are a few others to)

Sorry if I have gone on a bit of a tangent in places but hope this helps! For reference I am Agnostic (undecided) but if I had to choose I would call myself an exceptionally liberal Catholic (support gay marriage etc) but I also agree with right wing economics so take of that what you will ☺️🤷🏻*♀️
Original post by DeBruyne18
I find it rather strange that you condemn your opponents for existentialism while at the same time accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being a terrorist loving anti-semite.


Case in point. The conflation of one person with everyone.

Jeremy Corbyn is pretty much the only person I routinely class as a terrorist loving anti-Semite. He's not everyone.

Just as another day of Conservative government is not the end of the NHS, nor indeed the world.
Christians and Catholics btw, not the same people.
Catholicism = Catholics
Christianity = Christians

I only know a bit about Catholicism but I've always known it to be the more intense and stricter version of Christianity. I feel like a lot of Catholics take the bible more literally as well. Don't bash Christianity if it's actually Catholics who are being ruthless.
I don't know about your politics (not British) but shouldn't religion and party politics be firmly separated?
Original post by Rafael1313
I don't know about your politics (not British) but shouldn't religion and party politics be firmly separated?


Technically it’s not like if you’re a catholic vote right wing because I’m sure there are some left wing catholics. However there is a huge over lap in the beliefs of both so if you believe in Catholicism you are likely to be right wing.
Original post by Ambitious1999
I have always seen that Catholicism is more of a left leaning religion of compassion, honesty and tolerance.


Honesty and tolerance. Pull the other one. The Catholic church had a fit when it was discovered that the universe doesn't revolve around the earth. And they are less than tolerant. No contraception or birth control and a complete disregard towards anyone that doesn't fit the rosy model of one man and his subservient wife living happily ever after. Tolerant indeed!?
Original post by DeBruyne18
I find it rather strange that you condemn your opponents for existentialism while at the same time accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being a terrorist loving anti-semite.



At no point in his post was that even suggested, what was pointed out is that the narrative that a person who supposedly identifies as part of a particular group, sets out their opinion on politics/religion etc is therefore fully representative of that particular group is ludicrous.
Reply 12
Avatar for Wōden
Wōden
15
Original post by ElyLaw99
Christians and Catholics btw, not the same people.
Catholicism = Catholics
Christianity = Christians

I only know a bit about Catholicism but I've always known it to be the more intense and stricter version of Christianity. I feel like a lot of Catholics take the bible more literally as well. Don't bash Christianity if it's actually Catholics who are being ruthless.


I don't know about that. Many of the Protestant churches are far more radical and literalist. One of the primary triggers of the Reformation movement, was that many people didn't consider Catholicism to be a strict enough interpretation of holy scripture.
Original post by Wōden
'Tolerance' and 'compassion' are most certainly not the words that spring to mind when I think of Irish Catholicism.....


Perhaps Catholics are more tolerant than they appear - after all, they seem fine with gay sex when it is between a priest and a young boy.
And I'll just leave this here:

2biet26akofz.jpg
Original post by Wōden
I don't know about that. Many of the Protestant churches are far more radical and literalist. One of the primary triggers of the Reformation movement, was that many people didn't consider Catholicism to be a strict enough interpretation of holy scripture.


Yeh I can totally agree on that as well. Protestants are far stricter. But with regards to Christianity vs Catholicism, Catholicism is much stricter. I guess its almost like a scale really.
Original post by FriendlyPenguin
And I'll just leave this here:

2biet26akofz.jpg


Embarrassingly simplistic and a logical fallacy.

Correlation does not imply causation.
Reply 17
Avatar for Wōden
Wōden
15
Original post by FriendlyPenguin
Perhaps Catholics are more tolerant than they appear - after all, they seem fine with gay sex when it is between a priest and a young boy.


I think the Catholic Church's problem (the Irish branch of it, at least, I can't speak for other places as I have no experience of them) is that it is just deeply corrupt and has been for a long time. It became an institution of such great wealth and power, that it inevitably started attracting the worst kinds of people into it's leadership (I guess the Protestant Reformers were right all along).

Hearing some of the horror stories from the Irish side of my family who grew up within the church, I get the impression that many of players were in it solely for the power and status, not out of any sense of piety or spiritualism.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by FriendlyPenguin
And I'll just leave this here:

2biet26akofz.jpg


It depends for the country. In France the extreme right attracts catholic as they hate the secular republic
Original post by astutehirstute
Embarrassingly simplistic and a logical fallacy.

Correlation does not imply causation.


A logical fallacy? But I did not even draw any conclusions from the map! I just left it to the reader to decide :wink:

Well done for remembering that saying your maths teacher drilled into you all those years ago, but while it isn't proof, correlation is always *evidence* of causation, and when it is such a remarkably strong correlation as this, one cannot ignore it.

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