“If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy"
That is a quote from the Brexit Secretary, David Davis.
http://www.daviddavismp.com/david-davis-mp-delivers-speech-on-the-opportunities-for-a-referendum-on-europe/
On Tuesday, the Lords begin the debate on the EU Withdrawal Bill. There is talk that they could add an ammendment ensuring that both Parliament and people get to approve any final deal.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/28/house-of-lords-has-right-to-ask-commons-to-reconsider-brexit
This is obviously the right way to go. We need a second referendum and most people now agree - ICM polling the other day showed a 47-34 majority in favour of a second poll.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-second-referendum-britons-support-icm-poll-survey-a8180456.html
At the very least, we need the chance to review if we should remain in the Single Market. This was not put before the electorate in the EU referendum. Also, major lies were told by the Leave campaign and systematically spread by their allies in the dominant right wing media, most of which is owned by offshore oligarchs and serves the financial interests of other countries and foreign individuals.
The first poll was also manipulated by Russia and by hedge funds that have an interest in the collapse of sterling and the UK economy. The basis of the referendum was wrong, prohibiting overseas UK citizens from voting (yet they are entitled to UK pensions, etc) and not setting a minimum majority, as in other referenda globally on key national decisions.
http://www.daviddavismp.com/david-davis-mp-delivers-speech-on-the-opportunities-for-a-referendum-on-europe/
On Tuesday, the Lords begin the debate on the EU Withdrawal Bill. There is talk that they could add an ammendment ensuring that both Parliament and people get to approve any final deal.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/28/house-of-lords-has-right-to-ask-commons-to-reconsider-brexit
This is obviously the right way to go. We need a second referendum and most people now agree - ICM polling the other day showed a 47-34 majority in favour of a second poll.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-second-referendum-britons-support-icm-poll-survey-a8180456.html
At the very least, we need the chance to review if we should remain in the Single Market. This was not put before the electorate in the EU referendum. Also, major lies were told by the Leave campaign and systematically spread by their allies in the dominant right wing media, most of which is owned by offshore oligarchs and serves the financial interests of other countries and foreign individuals.
The first poll was also manipulated by Russia and by hedge funds that have an interest in the collapse of sterling and the UK economy. The basis of the referendum was wrong, prohibiting overseas UK citizens from voting (yet they are entitled to UK pensions, etc) and not setting a minimum majority, as in other referenda globally on key national decisions.
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Oh wonderful... another case of people advocating that Russia manipulated polls without concrete evidence. Not to support the actions of Russia in foreign affairs all the time, but painting then as this malicious boogeyman that wants to undermine everything consistently is something we should have given up decades ago.
The public has decided that they no longer want to remain in the EU. Yes I agree that the referendum did not acknowledge the various ways that can be considered but lest not forget that the remain campaign had consistently forecast doom and gloom, and that is still being forecast, based on hapless assumptions.
I admit that the current handling of Brexit is a complete shambles under May’s ministry, and that the solid remain base within the cabinet and Conservatives don’t exactly help the situation. Though with the handling, it remains up to the government to deliver a withdrawal from the EU and achieve the best deal ( and if the deal is awful, discarding the deal and pulling out immediately should be considered too).
Also right wing media lol
The public has decided that they no longer want to remain in the EU. Yes I agree that the referendum did not acknowledge the various ways that can be considered but lest not forget that the remain campaign had consistently forecast doom and gloom, and that is still being forecast, based on hapless assumptions.
I admit that the current handling of Brexit is a complete shambles under May’s ministry, and that the solid remain base within the cabinet and Conservatives don’t exactly help the situation. Though with the handling, it remains up to the government to deliver a withdrawal from the EU and achieve the best deal ( and if the deal is awful, discarding the deal and pulling out immediately should be considered too).
Also right wing media lol
Original post by CountBrandenburg
....
Putin's Brexit is turning out to be a nightmare.
Original post by Trapz99
The Prime Minister and the government have confirmed that a second referendum will not e taking place. There is no point in discussing this since it is not a possibility- the government and PM have made that clear.
Because everything they say is cast in a pillar of stone.
Original post by Trapz99
The Prime Minister and the government have confirmed that a second referendum will not e taking place. There is no point in discussing this since it is not a possibility- the government and PM have made that clear.
Shhh can’t tell the remoaners about that, what else would they do with their lives. And we definitely can’t tell The Independent... it still needs baseless material to write the worthless articles they seem to spew out daily
I’m getting sick of this. People are so dumb. WHATS THE POINT IN LEAVING THE EU BUT STAYING IN THE SINGLE MARKET?? It shouldn’t be an option, it’s pathetic. If you want to be in the single market, we stay 100% in the EU. if you want to leave the EU, you leave the single market, those are the only 2 options which make sense given the arguments for leaving/remaining.
Regarding your statement about the ICM poll and its indication that a 2nd referendum should now ensue. There have been many polls before and after this referendum, some stating, as youve mentioned, a shift in public opinion and others, no change at all and the country needs to get on with the job. The only poll that actually mattered was the one on 23rd June 2016. The majority of polls before the referendum didnt predict we would leave the EU so why would you suggest this poll is more respected than all the others?
Secondly, lies were not only told on both sides of the campaign but lies have also been told in every election in the history of elections. For example, Nick Clegg and the tuition fees debacle in 2010. Jeremy Corbyn stating he would wipe out student debt in 2017 and renegged when he didnt win the election. Ultimately, its our responsibility to do research and to vote accordingly, we know politicians will tell us all the good things and none of the bad things.
Secondly, lies were not only told on both sides of the campaign but lies have also been told in every election in the history of elections. For example, Nick Clegg and the tuition fees debacle in 2010. Jeremy Corbyn stating he would wipe out student debt in 2017 and renegged when he didnt win the election. Ultimately, its our responsibility to do research and to vote accordingly, we know politicians will tell us all the good things and none of the bad things.
Original post by Zxyn
I’m getting sick of this. People are so dumb. WHATS THE POINT IN LEAVING THE EU BUT STAYING IN THE SINGLE MARKET?? It shouldn’t be an option, it’s pathetic. If you want to be in the single market, we stay 100% in the EU. if you want to leave the EU, you leave the single market, those are the only 2 options which make sense given the arguments for leaving/remaining.
The point would be protecting the 80% of our economy that is dependent on the trade in services, which the EU will have no other interest except blocking.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The first poll was also manipulated by Russia and by hedge funds that have an interest in the collapse of sterling and the UK economy.
The first poll was also manipulated by Russia and by hedge funds that have an interest in the collapse of sterling and the UK economy.
Whereas your proposed second referendum would be insulated from such interests? What exactly do you propose should be done differently to make a second referendum a more reliable test of the public's real view?
The basis of the referendum was wrong... not setting a minimum majority, as in other referenda globally on key national decisions.
There was a minimum majority: 50%. Besides, you would justify any original heightened majority requirement on the basis of maintaining the status quo. The status quo is now Brexit. It is at this point, if it wasn't before, entirely unarguable that a supermajority should be required for Brexit, which is our presently established path.
What you've really done here is pointed to problems you see as inherent in the original referendum and proposed to remedy them by doing the same thing again. This doesn't make any sense as a matter of principle. As such, it is entirely transparent that all you care about is producing the result you want in a referendum, one way or another.
Original post by CountBrandenburg
Shhh can’t tell the remoaners about that, what else would they do with their lives. And we definitely can’t tell The Independent... it still needs baseless material to write the worthless articles they seem to spew out daily
Hello. Wanting a second referendum isn't something exclusive to remainers.
Original post by the bear
Putin's Brexit is turning out to be a nightmare.
Anyone suggesting it would be straightforward was either ignorant or a blatant liar. Any divorce is messy, deceitful and leaves both parties worse off.
As for democracy. Democracy is the process, not the decision or the outcome.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The point would be protecting the 80% of our economy that is dependent on the trade in services, which the EU will have no other interest except blocking.
Just stay in the EU then?? No point playing hokey pokey. Being in the EU is better than being in just the single market
Original post by Conceited
Hello. Wanting a second referendum isn't something exclusive to remainers.
Hi how is my second favourite liberal doing?
Yes I know that a second referendum isn’t exclusive to the remainer side, and I honestly can’t blame some people wanting to have a vote on the outcome ( as long as the Brexit process is reversed). Though I’d argue that we have had our say and offering another referendum so soon would sort of undermine the process, and would be quite costly
Original post by TimmonaPortella
A 60% majority should be required. No other country would allow such a crucial decision to be made by 52%.
There should be a review of press ownership and sanctions against the tax positions of the fake nondoms who own the major right wing media interests. In particular, Murdoch should be forced out of owning UK media, as he is an undesirable person.
Strict financial controls are needed to ensure that there can be no repeat of Leave handing vast sums to students to channel to Russian tweet machines and US-based data miners acting on behalf of hedge funds.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
A 60% majority should be required. No other country would allow such a crucial decision to be made by 52%.
Which I dealt with. You would then be requiring a supermajority in order for the public to endorse our current trajectory. This may be convenient in view of your ultimate aim of stopping Brexit, but you cannot then appeal to 'democracy'.
There should be a review of press ownership and sanctions against the tax positions of the fake nondoms who own the major right wing media interests. In particular, Murdoch should be forced out of owning UK media, as he is an undesirable person.
Strict financial controls are needed to ensure that there can be no repeat of Leave handing vast sums to students to channel to Russian tweet machines and US-based data miners acting on behalf of hedge funds.
Strict financial controls are needed to ensure that there can be no repeat of Leave handing vast sums to students to channel to Russian tweet machines and US-based data miners acting on behalf of hedge funds.
Alright. So you've set out the steps that are required, in your view, to make a new referendum a meaningful reflection of the democratic will.
Given that, obviously, none of them are going to happen, at the very least within any kind of useful timeframe, surely you would consider any second referendum invalid for the same reasons as the first?
How then is it any sort of solution for the country to stage another referendum?
Other than, of course, that it might conceivably pop out the result you wanted in the first place.
Original post by TimmonaPortella
Which I dealt with. You would then be requiring a supermajority in order for the public to endorse our current trajectory. This may be convenient in view of your ultimate aim of stopping Brexit, but you cannot then appeal to 'democracy'.
Alright. So you've set out the steps that are required, in your view, to make a new referendum a meaningful reflection of the democratic will.
Given that, obviously, none of them are going to happen, at the very least within any kind of useful timeframe, surely you would consider any second referendum invalid for the same reasons as the first?
How then is it any sort of solution for the country to stage another referendum?
Other than, of course, that it might conceivably pop out the result you wanted in the first place.
Alright. So you've set out the steps that are required, in your view, to make a new referendum a meaningful reflection of the democratic will.
Given that, obviously, none of them are going to happen, at the very least within any kind of useful timeframe, surely you would consider any second referendum invalid for the same reasons as the first?
How then is it any sort of solution for the country to stage another referendum?
Other than, of course, that it might conceivably pop out the result you wanted in the first place.
Well personally I would favour a complete invalidation of the original referendum, which should be declared null and void due to rigging and criminal behaviour in the Leave campaign.
As you say, that won't happen, because the same conspirators who provided the distorted first referendum (who in my opinion, despite his pretenses, included Cameron) are still in charge with the help of the equally corrupt DUP.
I am sure you feel happy with the current state of democracy where these are the people determining our national future.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Well personally I would favour a complete invalidation of the original referendum, which should be declared null and void due to rigging and criminal behaviour in the Leave campaign.
As you say, that won't happen, because the same conspirators who provided the distorted first referendum (who in my opinion, despite his pretenses, included Cameron) are still in charge with the help of the equally corrupt DUP.
I am sure you feel happy with the current state of democracy where these are the people determining our national future.
As you say, that won't happen, because the same conspirators who provided the distorted first referendum (who in my opinion, despite his pretenses, included Cameron) are still in charge with the help of the equally corrupt DUP.
I am sure you feel happy with the current state of democracy where these are the people determining our national future.
Once you go down that road you can justify calling our entire democracy null and void.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Well personally I would favour a complete invalidation of the original referendum, which should be declared null and void due to rigging and criminal behaviour in the Leave campaign.
Alright, fine. So we're agreed that a second referendum solves nothing. That's really all I set out to demonstrate.
As you say, that won't happen, because the same conspirators who provided the distorted first referendum (who in my opinion, despite his pretenses, included Cameron) are still in charge with the help of the equally corrupt DUP.
I am sure you feel happy with the current state of democracy where these are the people determining our national future.
I am sure you feel happy with the current state of democracy where these are the people determining our national future.
I am certainly happier than I would be with the other lot in charge.
The general direction of our national future was chosen by the public. I have my reservations about decisions being made in this way, but it is now done, and, if we are going to have decisions made by referenda, the vote has to be the bottom line.
Your argument seems to me to be that a vote is only valid if voters are exposed to the correct information, which comes very close to saying that it is only valid if it reaches the correct conclusion. I don't think this is a meaningful basis on which to hold a vote. If we are going to put a matter to a referendum that involves leaving to the voters the decision as to what information is reliable and pertinent, and in that case neither Murdoch nor the Leave campaign can be directly responsible for its outcome.
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