The Student Room Group

Labour discussing plans to include trans women on women only shortlists

Scroll to see replies

Original post by EqualitySloth
@Trinculo they aren’t men though, thats the whole point. If you are trans and you identify as a women then by definition of being a trans-woman, you ARE a woman


Well, firstly that is the definition of the trans people and their supporters.

Second - the real problem is that it's completely incompatible with feminism. You can have feminist equality, or you can have trans equality - but you can't have both.

Half the issue with pre-third wave feminism is that males have used their physical strength and various other attributes over time to build the "patriarchy" and use it to have continuing dominion over women. The point is that males are stronger than females and use this to subjugate them.

If a male can "be" a female by simply saying so - regardless of any physiological or legal changes - this means that the whole point of feminism is lost. Women who are biologically men are the metaphorical foxes in the henhouse. It's no different to that crazy woman Rachel Dolezal who claimed she was black when she was in fact white and worked for years in racial equality roles. Of course she can support whatever equality movement she likes - but she cannot pretend to be part of a minority that she is not actually part of simply by stating that she is.

If Corbyn has his way and no GRC is required to recognise a man as a woman - then is there any reason why this should not be extended to any other characteristic? Why should biological facts ever be paid attention to? Why shouldn't a young person be able to identify as older? If you're 14 years old, why shouldn't you just be able to be 21 just by saying so? That's less of a stretch than being a female with male anatomy. Why shouldn't people be able to self-identify as disabled and receive benefits?
Original post by EqualitySloth
@Trinculo they aren’t men though, thats the whole point. If you are trans and you identify as a women then by definition of being a trans-woman, you ARE a woman


You are quite wrong. By definition a woman is a female human being. Trans women are still biologically male.

Woman is not an idea, a feeling, a stereotyped identity (oh I like pretty things and pink, I'm a woman). It's first and foremost biological reality.


When the Vice President Women for Oxford's Student Union doesn't talk about women but "our menstruating students", you know how deep down the rabbit hole these people have crawled. If her first point as women's officer has the heading "Trans rights". Not "women's rights". As a women's officer. Not even LGBT officer (and even there, there's way more gay people than trans people, even there the first point should be about LGB not T).

https://www.oxfordsu.org/elections/manifesto/577/

It's ironic, too, this movement is so keen to let people identify as whatever they want, but when a woman wants to identify as a woman and talk about women's issues, all the Transwomen cry "omg, you are like being literally violent towards me by talking about that". So everyone is allowed to identify as something, except actual women. Secondly, in order to be able to 'identify' as women, they have to change the definition of woman in the first place. Which begs the question, why do they really want to be "women" if they have to change what "women" is? The answer is, not that it's about them, but about women, they want women to be something different. Something they define, something they control. Pure misogyny.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by So-Sarah
even if they still have a penis?


Yes, even if they still have a penis. Biological sex is completely different from gender and gender identity, so even if they still have a penis, they are a woman
Original post by EqualitySloth
Yes, even if they still have a penis. Biological sex is completely different from gender and gender identity, so even if they still have a penis, they are a woman


By all accounts they should still be considered male, and definitely not be put onto all women shortlists ( not that I agree with the very nature of those shortlists but that’s a conversation for another day)
Original post by EqualitySloth
Yes, even if they still have a penis. Biological sex is completely different from gender and gender identity, so even if they still have a penis, they are a woman


Woman is not a gendered term. It is a biological sex. The female sex.

Not to mention that whether gender is simply a self-identifying term is not true either.
Original post by yudothis
Woman is not a gendered term. It is a biological sex. The female sex.

Not to mention that whether gender is simply a self-identifying term is not true either.


What should someone use if not ‘woman’ then?
And yes gender [identity] is a self-identifying term
Original post by EqualitySloth
What should someone use if not ‘woman’ then?
And yes gender [identity] is a self-identifying term


Woman already has a meaning. And it does not mean men who would like to be women.

No, it is not. The whole concept of gender identity is pure nonsense and always ends up in the people abusing gender stereotypes in order to say they identify as something.
Original post by yudothis
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4389760/USA-women-s-team-suffer-5-2-loss-FC-Dallas-U-15-boys.html

The women's wold cup team lost to an U15 boys team.

As I said, this is pure lunacy to suggest one should not split sports by sex.


What you fail to mention is that it was described as a 'scrimmage' and was informal. They were hardly trying their best and were instead focuing on things like building chemistry and improving shape; not focusing on results. Seemed to have worked too considering they won their match against Russia.

Try again.
Original post by Conceited
What you fail to mention is that it was described as a 'scrimmage' and was informal. They were hardly trying their best and were instead focuing on things like building chemistry and improving shape; not focusing on results. Seemed to have worked too considering they won their match against Russia.

Try again.


Considering they won a match against other women.

Oh and this, I guess women just don't perform in 'friendlies', huh?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3609949/Matildas-lose-7-0-Newcastle-Jets-15s-Rio-Olympics-warm-up.html

Try again.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by cat_mac
I’m going to be opening a whole other can of worms here but I don’t think athletics should be divided by gender, but by height and weight. Kind of like weight categories in fighting. I believe that a woman and a man, if given the same training, the same diet, that are similar in build, can compete as equals. Idk how it would work in team sports, and I doubt people will seriously consider something like this for a looot of years.

You only have to look at world records set by people in similar classes to see that this is not true. Taking weightlifting as an example, 56kg men out-total women in all classes up to the openweight category, where women that are 100kg+ compete. Those records are more comparable to 69kg men. Similarly, with 100m, the women's world records are more similar to national/local records set by 15-year-old boys. The overall WR for a 2km row (erg times, although its similar OTW) is something like 6:20 for women and 5:40 for men, where 6:20 is basically a decent time for a regular male rower, or WRs for boys 14 and under, or men 60 and over. It goes on and on.

You (general) could argue that the women may not be given the same training or diet, but that makes light of female athletes' efforts because you're implying that they don't train as hard or are as meticulous as their male counterparts when it comes to diet because female records do not match up with male ones. It insults their dedication to their sport. I know, as someone that rowed with women aiming for GB boats that they worked just as hard as the men, if not harder, on the same training regimens and they accomplished great things like national records. Female athletes are very much pushing the boundaries of their respective sports, in terms of training, diet and dedication. There are simple physiological differences like testosterone levels (essential for muscle mass), skeletal leverages and bone density completely changes sports at the top level, separating men and women and unless you're drugging women up to have male levels of test and such.

If you removed gender (sex) separation in some sports, like any of those I've mentioned, you'd totally gut any chance for females to compete, at a professional level. Women's track and field teams, weightlifting teams, etc. would be scrapped because men that occupy any similar weight class, generally do better. It's backwards progression because you'd just end up with de-facto male only events and no platform for top level female athletes unless you demean them and make them compete with boys.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I've had a job where poeple got away with pinning female workers to the ground.

You are so lame it's beyond belief.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/john-lewis-gender-neutrality-trangender-children-medicalisation-lesbian-gay-education-a7946426.html

Caroline, who asked for me to use a pseudonym, is a Child Protection Officer with over 20 years’ experience. She told me: “There is no way that professionals can possibly pass on concerns [about children who identify as transgender] without being considered transphobic or bigoted. Many of us share the same concerns [about children being pushed into medical solutions] including friends of mine who are GPs, educational psychiatrists, social workers: all great people who work tirelessly for the good of young people. I see children changing their name, turning against their family, rewriting their past.”


Hey, even professionals in the subject matter don't dare speak up, but hey, that's just how it works, right?
Original post by EqualitySloth
Yes, even if they still have a penis. Biological sex is completely different from gender and gender identity, so even if they still have a penis, they are a woman


No, they are a man if they have a penis. And you are not what you identify as.
Original post by yudothis
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/john-lewis-gender-neutrality-trangender-children-medicalisation-lesbian-gay-education-a7946426.html



Hey, even professionals in the subject matter don't dare speak up, but hey, that's just how it works, right?


Protesters will be lined up against the wall and shot.
Original post by yudothis
Woman already has a meaning. And it does not mean men who would like to be women.

No, it is not. The whole concept of gender identity is pure nonsense and always ends up in the people abusing gender stereotypes in order to say they identify as something.


The people who do that probably spend a little too much time on Reddit.

Not the trans people with gender dysphoria but the non-binary special snowflake guys. Trans people need our support.
Original post by EqualitySloth
What should someone use if not ‘woman’ then?
And yes gender [identity] is a self-identifying term


No, it isn't. Your gender identity is the same as your biological sex. Unless you are trans, in which case you have a mental illness.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I've had a job where poeple got away with pinning female workers to the ground.

You are so lame it's beyond belief.


Holy hell. Did you take them to court?
Original post by yudothis
Men being on women's short list by 'self-identifying' as women is superiority. Men wanting access to women's spaces, men wanting to compete as women. All those things and if women say, no we want some things away from people who self-identify into our group, they are labelled as exclusive. You have a women's officer who spends most of the time talking about themselves and the rest of the time about trans issues.


Yep.
Original post by TheBomber09
Because it's dangerous? Someone who has body dysmorphia
isn't told "yes you are fat keep eating less" which would increase the severity of it.
So why should someone with gender dysmorphia be told "yes you are a
girl eventhough you're biologiaclly a man"?


Is that normalising?
Original post by yudothis
You're joking, right? You want to transition sports into a single category? I guess you've never actually competed, have you?

Do tell, what are these sports that could so easily be transitioned?


er....er.... tiddlywinks?
Original post by Unkilled
No, it isn't. Your gender identity is the same as your biological sex. Unless you are trans, in which case you have a mental illness.


Trans isnt a mental illness, look it up. On official websites such as the UK’s NHS, it says that it is not a mental illness. Look it up if you want to

Quick Reply

Related discussions

Latest

Trending

Trending

Articles for you