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What are your political beliefs?

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Original post by Big_man_conor
thats not a thing. a libertarian is its own thing. thats like saying youre a free market communist. libertarianism is inherently antileft no matter what way you look at it.

No it isn't.
Libertarianism is a traditionally left wing
Ideology. The Right stole the name and applied it to free marketism.
Reply 61
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bob072
12
Original post by DeBruyne18
No it isn't.
Libertarianism is a traditionally left wing
Ideology. The Right stole the name and applied it to free marketism.



Free markets are clearly libertarian, your idea of left-wing libertarianism kind of makes sense as a theoretical possibility but would only work if everyone is willing to cooperate to make it happen; and trade unions became powerful without government legislating. And we would need strictly controlled migration (through government) or business wouldn't listen to trade unions.
Original post by bob072
In my understanding:

Libertarianism is about having a small state and upholding personal liberty.



That came about from america/UK in the 80s and 90s. If you look at the history of libertarianism is comes from the left wing of political philosophy.

eg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon



In answer to the OP. I'm socialist who is open to different schools of thought in that area of thinking. Although I do lean towards the libertarian end of the spectrum. Very much not a Stalinist or Fabian. I want to give workers power. Not state bureaucrats.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by bob072
Free markets are clearly libertarian, your idea of left-wing libertarianism kind of makes sense as a theoretical possibility but would only work if everyone is willing to cooperate to make it happen; and trade unions became powerful without government legislating. And we would need strictly controlled migration (through government) or business wouldn't listen to trade unions.


Please just go and read some history before being so wrong about everything :tongue:

With regards to needing to strictly control migration, that is venomously not libertarian. The libertarian approach to unions is internationalist. Go read about anarcho-syndicalism or internationalist unions like the Wobblies that were made up by and large by immigrant workers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World
Left libertarianism is an ideology so dumb It made commies, liberals, conservatives and fascists join forces to kill all of them. 😂
Reply 65
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bob072
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Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Please just go and read some history before being so wrong about everything :tongue:

With regards to needing to strictly control migration, that is venomously not libertarian. The libertarian approach to unions is internationalist. Go read about anarcho-syndicalism or internationalist unions like the Wobblies that were made up by and large by immigrant workers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World



That's what I was saying you clearly weren't able to comprehend it but I'll try again.

It's oxymoronic because:

To be left wing without an authoritarian state in the way the original poster suggested you are relying on powerful trade unions.

If we don't use the state to control migration, business will have an oversupply of labour which undermines trade unions.

So you need to involve the state one way or another and so 'left-wing libertarian' is just a label, not a practical ambition.

And I could make a similar case for nationalisation or health or education.


That came about from america/UK in the 80s and 90s. If you look at the history of libertarianism is comes from the left wing of political philosophy. eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Joseph_Proudhon In answer to the OP. I'm socialist who is open to different schools of thought in that area of thinking. Although I do lean towards the libertarian end of the spectrum. Very much not a Stalinist or Fabian. I want to give workers power. Not state bureaucrats.



Is the history of who used the word first really relevant compared to the definition and what it would mean today?

Having looked up a definition I get

"an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens"

which is pretty much exactly what I said.
Original post by Davij038
Left libertarianism is an ideology so dumb It made commies, liberals, conservatives and fascists join forces to kill all of them. 😂


It literally predates right wing libertarianism by more than 100 years.

You are right though. All those political groups are full of mass murderers that felt so threatened by a supposedly useless ideology they were all willing to join together to kill libertarians.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by bob072


Is the history of who used the word first really relevant compared to the definition and what it would mean today?



That isn't even true that it means something different today as it is still very much used in the original left wing anti-capitalist context. "The most important and most cited intellectual" Noam Chomsky self identifies as a libertarian socialist. There is still lots of current political theory and practise that draws from that tradition. The modern right wing variant is very much the anomaly and is largely treated as incoherent by the rest of the tradition.

It's also an enlightenment and capitalist era philosophy that is a product of the era of humanity we still live in. I don't how you can ignore the history of an entire political school of thought when working out what a word means.
(edited 6 years ago)
Reply 68
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bob072
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Original post by ChaoticButterfly
That isn't even true that it means something different today as it is still very much used in the original left wing anti-capitalist context. "The most important and most cited intellectual" Noam Chomsky self identifies as a libertarian socialist. There is still lots of current political theory and practise that draws from that tradition. The modern right wing variant is very much the anomaly and is largely treated as incoherent by the rest of the tradition.

It's also an enlightenment and capitalist era philosophy that is a product of the era of humanity we still live in. I don't how you can ignore the history of an entire political school of thought when working out what a word means.


You seem to be talking out of your arse, and the fact you're also trolling and insulting people confirms this.
Original post by bob072
You seem to be talking out of your arse, and the fact you're also trolling and insulting people confirms this.


You should listen to him, you might just learn something.
Original post by Captain Haddock
You should listen to him, you might just learn something.


Thank you for confirming to me that I am not living in a dreamworld totally detached from reality.

When you encounter so much of this it can be hard to tell whether you are actually talking out of your arse :tongue:

One of the problems with being open minded is you doubt yourself all the ****ing time whilst others just believe their own spiel with total conviction -___-

I'm always trying to second guess whether I am accidently a Stalinist.
(edited 6 years ago)
Freer the market, freer the people :wink:
Reply 72
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bob072
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Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Thank you for confirming to me that I am not living in a dreamworld totally detached from reality.

When you encounter so much of this it can be hard to tell whether you are actually talking out of your arse :tongue:

One of the problems with being open minded is you doubt yourself all the ****ing time whilst others just believe their own spiel with total conviction -___-

I'm always trying to second guess whether I am accidently a Stalinist.



How is it being open minded to say things like:

" just go and read some history before being so wrong about everything"

or

"**** off you fascist turd"

And it wouldn't suprise me if you are just using a sockpuppet to agree with yourself.
Original post by bob072
How is it being open minded to say things like:

" just go and read some history before being so wrong about everything"

or

"**** off you fascist turd"

And it wouldn't suprise me if you are just using a sockpuppet to agree with yourself.


Libertarianism was originally a left wing ideology. It has nothing to do with the 'free market', which is actually a rather authoritarian system in and of itself.

The right just took the name and applied it to free marketism.
Reply 74
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bob072
12
Original post by DeBruyne18
Libertarianism was originally a left wing ideology. It has nothing to do with the 'free market', which is actually a rather authoritarian system in and of itself.

The right just took the name and applied it to free marketism.



Free market is authoritarian???????????!? How do you explain that one?


I guess you're another of his sockpuppets using exactly the same language.
Original post by bob072
How is it being open minded to say things like:

" just go and read some history before being so wrong about everything"



I mean, that's good advice. It's poor form to be obstinate in your views on issues that you are not sufficiently acquainted with. You should be open to the possibility that you do not know as much as you think you do, and that other people might be more knowledgeable on certain topics than yourself. You can be forgiven for balking at the idea of left-libertarianism, but persisting in error when even a brief Google search would confirm that ChaoticButterfly et. al. are correct just makes you look ridiculous.
Reply 76
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bob072
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Original post by Captain Haddock
I mean, that's good advice. It's poor form to be obstinate in your views on issues that you are not sufficiently acquainted with. You should be open to the possibility that you do not know as much as you think you do, and that other people might be more knowledgeable on certain topics than yourself. You can be forgiven for balking at the idea of left-libertarianism, but persisting in error when even a brief Google search would confirm that ChaoticButterfly et. al. are correct just makes you look ridiculous.



Stop ruining threads with your sockpuppets.


I'm not researching for a thesis, nor do I spend my life researching minor historical movements.


Asking whether something is a contradiction gives you the opportunity to explain why not, rather than laughing at someone for being so ignorant. From what I can see the idea would collapse within weeks, as happened in Russia a century ago and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Centre left/left depending on the situation. Still trying to understand politics haha
Reply 78
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jkz76
5
I used to be centre-left but I've travelled over to the centre-right. There are a few thing that I agree with from the left but, especially in recent times, I've come to find the right more welcoming for what I personally believe in.
Original post by 420blazeallday
'left wing'. micromanagement of an economy by government so that profit is shared will be possible in the near future as computers are able to perform more complicated tasks.


Disagree with this. An ideology that effectively steals employees hard earned capital is never good. This high-tax socialist fantasy will result in companies leaving the country and setting up shop elsewhere in order to save money. This in turn will destroy the market and lead to vast unemployment; that is of course if the high taxes on your every day man/woman have not already achieved that.

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