MPs to probe unconditional offers from universities

Original post by ajj2000

Thats ridiculous - Cameron and Johnson in particular were academic superstars. Oh, and by the way, in the years they went Oxford offers tended to be EE.

On the other hand David Miliband and Toby Young got Oxbridge places with VERY low grades. Apparently Marxist fathers help...

EE (matriculation) offers were uncommon, and afaik were more usual at Cambridge. They were usually only offered to applicants who had done well in the entrance exams.

Reply 102

ajj2000

Original post by Doonesbury

EE (matriculation) offers were uncommon, and afaik were more usual at Cambridge. They were usually only offered to applicants who had done well in the entrance exams.

In my year of application - 1989 entry which would have been the same or similar to Cameron and Johnson - all Oxford courses I hear of required entrance exams. Success on these exams led to EE offers. I dont recall hearing of any exceptions to this.

Cambridge had moved to offers based on 'A' level grades and possibly 'S' levels. I believe that move had been fairly recent and was in response to claims that entrance exams favoured the privately educated.

Reply 103

Original post by ajj2000

In my year of application - 1989 entry which would have been the same or similar to Cameron and Johnson - all Oxford courses I hear of required entrance exams. Success on these exams led to EE offers. I dont recall hearing of any exceptions to this.

Cambridge had moved to offers based on 'A' level grades and possibly 'S' levels. I believe that move had been fairly recent and was in response to claims that entrance exams favoured the privately educated.

I defer to your knowledge :smile:

Christ's Cambridge was the last to have EE offers and only stopped fairly recently. 2009 I think...

Reply 104

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Puddles the Monkey

If the student firms a uni that wasn't their first choice and subsequently drops out because they're unhappy, that willl affect the uni :beard:

but I guess they calculate that risk :holmes:

Indeed they do, there are few things more data-mined than the retention figures by universities and they know a formidable amount about student motives, causes of drop out and so on. Actually, it's a shame more effort isn't made to connect this big data with the issues surrounding student mental health and causes of self-inflicted mortality amongst students, which is a big problem and downplayed I feel by many of the institutions.

Reply 105

Fullofsurprises

Original post by ajj2000

Thats ridiculous - Cameron and Johnson in particular were academic superstars. Oh, and by the way, in the years they went Oxford offers tended to be EE.

Just a little reminder that Boris only managed an upper second - to his enduring disappointment, esp. when compared to his old Eton sparring partner, Cameron, who got his First in PPE. So Bojo wasn't quite the 'academic superstar' that Cammie was.

Reply 106

ajj2000

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Just a little reminder that Boris only managed an upper second - to his enduring disappointment, esp. when compared to his old Eton sparring partner, Cameron, who got his First in PPE. So Bojo wasn't quite the 'academic superstar' that Cammie was.

Boris was an academic superstar at Eton- admission was based on achievement at 17/18 - not where you are on graduation.

Reply 107

SarcAndSpark

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Indeed they do, there are few things more data-mined than the retention figures by universities and they know a formidable amount about student motives, causes of drop out and so on. Actually, it's a shame more effort isn't made to connect this big data with the issues surrounding student mental health and causes of self-inflicted mortality amongst students, which is a big problem and downplayed I feel by many of the institutions.

I think I'm right in thinking that students who get a place via clearing are some of the ones most likely to drop out- so perhaps giving students unconditionals and getting them to emotionally commit to a place from, say, March, is better for these statistics. I'm sure some students do feel like they've made the wrong choice and drop out, but I would guess this is a small proportion of a small proportion.

On your second point, I'm sure it would be a useful thing to look at. However, I wonder if students who feel able to drop out are less likely to self harm etc, as they feel able to do something to change/control their situation (and probably have a supportive family to return home to). I'm basing that on nothing at all, though!

Reply 108

Fullofsurprises

Original post by ajj2000

Boris was an academic superstar at Eton- admission was based on achievement at 17/18 - not where you are on graduation.

Oh Eton, phtt. I was referring to proper academia, not the self-indulgent fakery and praise for tricksterism and deceit that comprises much of Eton's output. Although of course they were good preparation for bringing Boris to his full hypocritical potentials.

Reply 109

Crazysue1

11

Youngest son already knew where he wanted to go and intended to firm as soon as he got an offer, unconditional or not. What put the cat among the pigeons and caused him a lot of stress was not one but 3 unconditional offers including one from his favourite university. The reason for the quandary and angst was his speculative application to an RG uni, one he thought he had no real hope at getting an offer from because of his educational history and which was also an unconditional (they were also the fastest responders with a personal email from the senior lecturer that most certainly massaged youngest's ego but also added to his angst and indecision)

He was very very tempted for a while to change his long held choice to the RG uni, just so he could prove to his doubters that he was good enough (long story which includes being written off pre GCSE due to his disabilities) but in the end after a lot of soul searching and research into the pros and cons of each course and university, location, ease of travel etc, firmed his original favourite.

For him, the unconditional offers spurred him on. He didn't just want to have the offer in the bag but he also wanted to prove he was good enough for it and to be going to university. He could do that without the stress, he knew where he was going, that it was a certainty and it gave him a chance to really show what he could do unencumbered by all the pressure and stress.

By results day, he was not only the top student in his year group during lessons at college but also for his results.

Reply 110

username2094811

15

Original post by Doonesbury

Birmingham is the worst offender - it's a clear marketing strategy by them, and not necessarily in the interests of the student. Birmingham is only interested in securing bums on seats ahead of their competitors.

And yet Birmingham's reputation has arguably improved since handing them out - was previously ranked mid-20s in all the league tables (now ranks about 15th), and is now one of the most applied to universities in the country. So they must be doing something right. The improved reputation benefits the students.

Reply 111

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/birmingham/performance

Original post by MaskOfKeaton

And yet Birmingham's reputation has arguably improved since handing them out - was previously ranked mid-20s in all the league tables (now ranks about 15th), and is now one of the most applied to universities in the country. So they must be doing something right. The improved reputation benefits the students.

Interesting. I wonder what they did in 2014:
Birmingham ranking.jpeg

Reply 112

PQ

Clearing and Applications Advisor

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/birmingham/performance

Original post by Doonesbury

Interesting. I wonder what they did in 2014:
Birmingham ranking.jpeg

It's usually - "failed to recruit to target"/slashed intake numbers so their staff student ratio and spend/student ratio got a boost and staff had a bit more time to help finalists (boosting NSS and degree classifications) and more effort went into retaining the smaller cohort (so continuation gets a boost)....

Reply 113

PQ

Clearing and Applications Advisor

2013 table - 1sts and 2:1s was 76.1%
2018 table - 84.9%

So it looks like what they did was start handing out a lot more firsts (which then boosted their employment stats).... :moon:

Shame that the TEF is now looking into grade inflation :flute:

Reply 114

username2094811

15

Original post by Doonesbury

See PQ's post!

And the chart below shows these offers are increasingly made to "good" (i.e. BBB to AAB) rather than the "outstanding" A* students.

Screen Shot 2018-02-16 at 13.42.59.jpg

So it's universities outside the "top-tier" fighting over bums on seats... i.e. Birmingham, Nottingham...

What people on this thread don't seem to be interested in acknowledging is the conditions that are actually required to get unconditionals from certain universities. There seems to be a stigma about them but some are harder to get than others, to get an unconditional from Birmingham you generally need least AAA predictions at A-Level, plus at least 7 A*s at GCSE (and a good personal statement, reference etc.), so they're probably the most 'desired' unconditional offers attainable atm. The whole point of introducing unconditionals was to get numbers of applicants up and innovate the admissions system across the board, won't be long before other highly-ranked unis start copying Birmingham, apparently even UCL does them now.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 115

Good bloke

19

Original post by PQ

2013 table - 1sts and 2:1s was 76.1%
2018 table - 84.9%

So it looks like what they did was start handing out a lot more firsts (which then boosted their employment stats).... :moon:

Shame that the TEF is now looking into grade inflation :flute:

Original post by MaskOfKeaton

And yet Birmingham's reputation has arguably improved since handing them out - was previously ranked mid-20s in all the league tables (now ranks about 15th), and is now one of the most applied to universities in the country. So they must be doing something right. The improved reputation benefits the students.

There is your answer, and a cynical strategy for keeping market share: Steal the candidates from more reputable universities by using UiF offers and get around the likely reputational problems by making sure everyone gets a first, even if the quality of the intake has been compromised.

I wonder how long-lasting this will be.

Reply 116

Clearing and Applications Advisor

Original post by MaskOfKeaton

What people on this thread don't seem to be interested in acknowledging is the conditions that are actually required to get unconditionals from certain universities. There seems to be a stigma about them but some are harder to get than others, to get an unconditional from Birmingham you generally need least AAA predictions at A-Level, plus at least 7 A*s at GCSE (and a good personal statement, reference etc.), so they're probably the most 'desired' unconditional offers attainable atm. The whole point of introducing unconditionals was to get numbers of applicants up and innovate the admissions system across the board, won't be long before other highly-ranked unis start copying Birmingham, apparently even UCL does them now.

The chart says different. A rapidly increasing 25% of BBB are getting unconditionals vs a plateauing 17% of AAA.

Reply 117

username2094811

15

Original post by PQ

2013 table - 1sts and 2:1s was 76.1%
2018 table - 84.9%

So it looks like what they did was start handing out a lot more firsts (which then boosted their employment stats).... :moon:

Shame that the TEF is now looking into grade inflation :flute:

Or maybe the students are just fundamentally doing better...

Reply 118

PQ