Chinese pres to become emperor?

Perhaps not but it does preclude America from taking the moral high ground when by any measure it's crimes are more egregious.

That's a bit reaching isn't it?

Arguably neither is America nor many other countries that preach this spiel - a liberal democracy generally doesn't execute ts citizens, run torture camps or depose democracies but there we go. Equally the argument can be made - and frequently is - that the party in china rules via quid pro quo in that it promises astounding economic success in return for rule, so far its holding up its end of the bargain.
This is leaving aside the fact china is, by all accounts, unable to be a democracy - the late president of Singapore summed it up nicely when he said if china went democratic it would implode.

It was amusing listening to radio 4 news this evening at 5pm, they had a lot of discussion on this move by the Chinese Communist Party and various apologists from China trying to claim it was all just routine and nothing to worry about. (One brave dissident inside China was quoted as trying to organise a petition against it - he is expecting to be sent back to prison for this outrageous act shortly.)

It's very difficult not to see this as a full return to Maoist autocracy by Xi Jinping. At the very least, he and the leadership are confirming their absolute power and denying even the possibility of another system or leadership. All this from a government that has never once put itself up for election to the people.

We should move away from trading with China, apart from stocking Poundland and enabling Apple and Samsung and Nike to exploit cheap labour, all it really seems to achieve is cementing this totalitarian dictatorship in place. It's time to review the entire relationship with China and start insisting they offer their people genuine democracy or else bow out of the list of nations we do business with. We also need to put a stop to their ghastly 'New Silk Road' programme and their interference in Africa and elsewhere in Asia.

...Using a de facto dictator's words to justify dictatorship is...ineffective. Are you going to quote The Pope in support of theocracy?

We are not the United States, I am not the United States. I'm at a loss as why the USA not being able to stand on the moral high ground has anything at all to do with this discussion. And once again, 2 wrongs don't make a right, and ever if you do think that, China has already had its turn in being a big bully - if that's what you said was "reaching", then I have to assume you haven't studied Chinese history at all. At least not anything before the Republic of China.

If you're going to make such a hard claim that "China is, by all accounts, unable to be a democracy", you will need to actually make some arguments.

Taiwan is a democracy, South Korea is a democracy, Japan is a democracy. They all shared the very similar oriental/Chinese culture. Have they exploded?

India has about the same amount in population as China has. The US is the third-most populous country on Earth, and it is a democracy. Have they exploded?

So why would it have exploded? And what do you mean by "explode", anyway? Well, in any case, they have had some real explosions now under the CCP's rule.

Beijing doesn't claim to have the right to rule due to its economic successes. It never has. Not only has it been quite disastrous in delivering economic success during most of the time in its existence, but they claim they have the mandate to rule because they have the people's support. And, if this is how you justify Beijing's rule, then why is Dr Xi given more and more power in a time when the economy has slowed down rapidly? Shouldn't the reverse be done to "punish" the ruler for not delivering as much as they did before?

I'm sorry who am i quoting ?

You don't say dear
No i was calling your 'argument' of harking back several centuries reaching. I feel i was being a tad too generous there, it is absolutely preposterous not to mention lazy.

Normally i'd call you out for this blatant and intellectually sub normal kind of sealioning but i'll indulge you.
Taiwan and south Korea are not China, only a truly ignorant person would try and compare such different countries.

Not least of all because China is, unlike the aforementioned, a huge

and completely diverse country with differing ethnic, lingual and cultural groups across it.

Take for instance the Uighurs, whom would immediately break away followed by Hong Kong, Tibet et al. Say what you want for the morals on keeping them or letting them go but unless you are the premier there it makes absolutely on difference.

Says who? you? lol

Yeah averaging 10pc or near enough in recent years is a terrible economic performance isnt it? Out of interest but where do you base these quite amusing opinions of yours? by every metric China is on course to overtake the US as the dominant economic power and if you use PPP as a measure it has over taken them.
Again why are you saying i have said i have not? I simply put forward a widely used fact - this is what Beijing uses as its justification for rule and whether you like it or not the regime there has widespread support. there might be large elements who dont support the regime but they are still a minority.
So what if its growth has slowed? that is completely irrelevant to my point as the economy is still growing very quickly compared to any comparable country.

I think Xi is (hopefully) wise enough to learn from the mistakes of Mao. Also in this era, I would think it's easier for people to revolt *if* Xi were to become Mao No. 2. Hence it's worth waiting to see, cautious optimism.

Weren't you quoting Prime Minister Lee?

That wasn't my argument at all. I don't think everyone should get their turn to being a bully. But you keep mentioning the fact that the US is a bully as if it's in any way relevant to this.

If we go by culture, Taiwan and Korea are similar to China. The one who's ignorant is you.

Population - similar to India, a democracy that hasn't exploded
Size - similar to the US, a democracy that hasn't exploded; smaller than Canada, a democracy that hasn't exploded

I literally dealt with this because I knew that's gonna be your argument.

China ranks No 138 out of 159 countries by ethnic diversity. They are behind more than a handful of democracies.

these areas form around 0.8%, 0.5%, and 0.2% of China's population.

Letting them go would prevent China from exploding (although I'm not certain about Hong Kong, which culturally is a lot more similar to China than the ethnic minority regions are - given the choice, most Hongkongers would not vote to change its current status anyway), by not giving them the reason to stage terrorist attacks, making it easier to build a nation state.

It's the exact same reason why Israel isn't annexing Palestinian territories despite their having basically full control of them right now (maybe not Gaza).

And who are you? You've been decreeing things like China can't have democracy just because, Beijing is a legitimate ruler because it agrees to deliver economic success.

Unless you're actually a 5 center?

What a strawman argument. I didn't say it was bad, I said it wasn't as good as it was before, so logic has it they should have less power instead of more, if like you said the ruling relationship is "I give you money, you give me power", then "I now give you less money, you give me less power".

Chinese GDP Growths -
2017: 6.9
2016: 6.7
2015: 6.9
2014: 7.3
2013: 7.8
2012: 7.9
2011: 9.5
2010: 10.6
2009: 9.5
2008: 9.7
2007: 14.2
2006: 12.7
2005: 11.4
2004: 10.1
2003: 10

The Xi years averaged a 7.12% growth. That's significantly lower than both a 10% average or Wu's average.

I know where I get my facts and informed opinions from, and I know where you get your usual apologetic views from as well - the Chinese propaganda machine.

Paraphrasing but yes, you have some form of problem with the man?

If you say so.

It's a good thing we're not then isnt it? Only a intellectually bankrupt person would try to use such a narrow measure.

You're forgetting one tiny little - detail China is neither of those countries. You are using the most insanely lazy and slap dash comparisons it beggars belief.

Again, why are you comparing the incomparable here? An apple is not an orange and China is not America, India, Japan, Korea etc. You're just being thoroughly academically dishonest in your 'arguments'

To be perfectly honest with you your opinion on this is completely irrelevent - this is what the CCP believe and their opinion is what ultimately counts here.

Israel is entirely an annexed territory. Not to mention its gradually pilfering bits of the West Bank.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with a dictionary, I have 'decreed' nothing - i have simply put forth the CCPs opinions on the matter.
No I said I agree with Lees assessment that if China went democratic the state would splinter and China would cease to exist in its current form. Your only 'counter argument' for this is 'What about India [et al.] which to be honest isnt so much an argument a lazy fit of whataboutery.

Well seeing as once again your opinion on what does or doesnt constitute a legitimate ruler is completely immaterial - not to mention near every single government in the world disagrees with you on that...

Whats your point? Are you forgetting one oversaw on the greatest economic bullmarkets in history and the other has been left with a globally sluggish economy?

Yes, apparently Wikipedia

If you say so champ.

Western Democracy does not work all your politicians are sell outs bought by billionaire oligarchs

I'm still waiting for your point? So what?

I'm curious are you going to get around to proposing facts instead of conjecture and your own tawdry opinions? You have yet to make a single point backed up by a shred of evidence [no Wiki is not a source]
Post something other than heresay and petty insults and i might debate you, until then bye bye

Oh. Interesting. So you posted that the growths have been around 10% without any source at all, is not "heresay" or "conjecture and your own tawdry opinions"?

The GDP growth slowing down can be easily found everywhere, such as the Financial Times. China's debt level being high is the opinion of the IMF. Factories leaving China is also reported by everyone, including just randomly picking a source, CNBC.

It's laughable that while you have provided exactly 0 source or evidence whatsoever, I have given you one after another receipt, yet somehow I'm still the one who's offering hearsay "yet to make a single point backed up by a shred of evidence".

I mean, I have to assume you have been typing this looking into a mirror.

I'm sorry what do Yu have against my quoting the man?
No strangely enough that was a ball park guess
Seeing as no one ever denied it was I'm confused as to what point you're trying (and failing) to make?
Well that's an outright lie - I told you the sources and I told you to read them yourself as I am not typing up various book chapters for some dunderpate who thinks wiki is the dogs *******s of sources
No I'm typing this drinking a beer on the beach, alas you of all people aren't going to trump my tanning I'm afraid.

So now all your arguments have been destroyed, you're holding on to the one single irrelevant point, ie that you have provided a source for the quote. I pointed out, extremely specifically, clearly explicitly, that you didn't provide a source for your 10% growth claim. But reading is perhaps challenging for certain people.

Supporting your view by simply quoting someone's opinion doesn't explain anything, unlike me giving you examples of countries that have democracies or providing you hard, solid numbers from reputable organizations such as the Financial Times (which isn't Wikipedia - btw that'd still be better than you and your "China averages 10% growth in recent year because I say so, even though I clearly know nothing".

Interesting how you feel the need to bring up yet another irrelevant point that you are intoxicated on a beach, which further adds to the now obvious situation where you have been utterly destroyed by facts and figures, been thoroughly exposed for your hypocricy, and can do nothing other than saying more irrelevant nonsense no-one is interested in reading.

If you say so babe
I'm sorry i thought that was clear, to even the most dullwited person, that was a'guesstimate' i.e. something that doesnt need sourcing - i'm not sure how else someone would interprate 'around 10pc'

Is this coming from the person who hasnt supplied any sources, as once again wiki is not a source

I'm really starting to doubt your literary skills - nowhere did i say one was 'intoxicated'
Of course babe.

I didn't demand you provide your source, because I know your information is wrong. I provided the real numbers for you. You are welcome.

Ironic because you are the one whose literary skills were too low to spot the 3 sources (Financial Times, IMF, and CNBC) I used 22 hours ago to support my claim that the economy is going downhill.

So yes, you are the one who hasn't supplied any sources, I am the one who has supplied multiple.

If your next post continues to deny this obvious, verifiable fact, I can only repeat this over and over again: I have provided multiple reputable sources to verify my claim, you have never.

ETA: And for someone who complains about petty insults, it's interesting how you have continued using the same lie over and over again just so you can insult. I believe you are what people called a "hypocrite". Maybe an "illiterate person" as well, if you have read my two posts closely (judged by the fact that you broke them up to quote), yet were still unable to see the linked sources, twice.

Try not to lie now.
I'm not sure how you can call a ball park guess 'wrong', out yes but not wrong.



Slowing growth does not mean the economy is going down hill sunshine. Not to mention you have failed to specify exactly what about it is going down hill.


Please stop lying...

You provided a source relating to an economic slow down which for all intents and purposes is completely irrelevant to the argument that you seem to believe the Chinese government is illegitimate when all facts strongly beg to differ.
To be honest though kid you're apparently from Hong Kong SAR so i'd imagine you're somewhat unfit to debate this as you cant see the wood for the trees.

Why are you still harping on about sources? If this was an essay I might concur it needs referencing - alas it is not and it doesnt. I'm sure since you 'apparently' went to Oxford you have the initiative to use that mighty fine invention called the interweb to see that nothing i have said is a simple fabrication - not to mention i have told you the book to read so please stop all this lying and try to debate like an adult.

The GDP growth slowing down can be easily found everywhere, such as the Financial Times. China's debt level being high is the opinion of the IMF. Factories leaving China is also reported by everyone, including just randomly picking a source, CNBC

I repeat: You are the one who hasn't supplied any sources, I am the one who has supplied multiple. That is a fact.

Take you own advice and "stop all this lying and try to debate like an adult".



---

One second you acknowledged the obvious fact that I did provide a source for my claim that the economy is slowing down and has many signs of danger, another second you claimed that I "lied". Right.

Perhaps be consistent next time?

---

And in a final pathetic attempt to "win" the argument, you've resorted to attacking for my background, casting doubt over my qualifications, and calling me a "kid".

Not to mention I have stated very explicitly that the point about their legitimacy to rule was merely a side point, and I based it on how western liberal democracies define it (by having a democratic mandate), I even then said that I understood not all cultures saw it the same way, so I used the word "questionable". Oh wait - unless you mean you want me to provide a source that the CCP never won an election?! You know, I'd think people who want to debate on this topic would have some basic knowledge on what's going on. But I guess not!

Why is it so difficult for you to admit defeat, Mr Adult?