Student sues Anglia Ruskin over &quot;Mickey Mouse&quot; degree

Original post by Joinedup

I dunno. While they shouldn't be allowed to get away with lying or abusing stats I think the problem is more what unis are allowed to get away without saying... and unistats doesn't really help.

Students looking at law degrees would probably like to know what proportion of graduates from each law course get training contracts - and that's a reasonable thing for them to wonder about imo... nobody will give them a straight answer about it though. Unis get away with saying that the course prepares them for X or meets the educational requirements for Z & publishing a cherry picked vignette about a graduate 2 years ago who made it. unistats is only able to tell them what proportion of graduates get 'professional jobs' which is a weak proxy for the information applicants actually want.

There's such a cultural push towards going to uni I think the applicants are aware of the gaps but just decide everyone telling them to go to uni must be right and are mentally joining the dots to make the attractive picture the unis want them to see.

Probably you could force UK uni prospectuses to read more like share issue prospectuses (which are full of caveats and risk factors) - UK students would probably still join the dots and make some poor decisions anyway unless the cultural push is fixed... but they wouldn't be able to say nobody warned them.

There should be a legal obligation for universities to produce granular employment/destinations reports for ever graduating year - showing: company, role, salary (+ other comp) and location or postgrad course/institution. Maybe even list employers that are affiliated with the university through society sponsorship, careers fairs and careers services events.

Lots of top US universities do this and postgrad business schools that have strong placement do this.. why the exception here in the UK? Get rid of the smokes and mirrors; show prospective students hard data.

This way, people will know straight away what they're getting themselves into with regards to their degree/uni choice and universities would have a vested interest in the success of their graduates.

A good example:
https://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/CAS_CPSurvey2016.pdf

Posted from TSR Mobile

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 162

Luke7456

not quite sure how they can win this. I have not specifically investigated this course, though I did see a video specifically dissing this.

Anyway it is very apparent that different universities offer different values for money. There are clearly some universities which are value for money and some which are not. This is why I wonder how it is that they all charge the same fees.

For example I guessed in another students thread that he was at a specific university. mainly because during the application process i decided to look at a wide range of universities some good some moderate and some which I would assume were bad.

one specific university offered only 3 hours of class/lectures a week and if I you need extra support/help with anything you need to make an appointment two weeks in advance. Further I do not believe (though did not confirm) that they even had a library or uni computers. The fact that this university charges the same £9250 fees as everywhere else is just shockingly bad.

compare this with a university that offers 20 hours of classes/lectures a week has a library with 24/7 access lecturers with open door policy and recorded lectures etc.

one is clearly offering more value then the other. Now if the first uni charged say £3000 a year and the second university charged the full £9250 a year that might be fair.

However the issue is that its business its just trade hypothetically if I am willing to pay £25 for a bottle of water then clearly I am been ripped of but It is my responsibility to do the appropriate research as it is for others regarding their courses.

where I think there might be an argument is that most students are been supported by taxes eg student loans which they will not pay back themselves.

Here I think the UK population/government bearing the financial cost should have the right to put pressure on universities and limit course fees/not support courses for cases where value for money is clearly not there.

Reply 163

Fullofsurprises

OP

Original post by Princepieman

There should be a legal obligation for universities to produce granular employment/destinations reports for ever graduating year - showing: company, role, salary (+ other comp) and location or postgrad course/institution. Maybe even list employers that are affiliated with the university through society sponsorship, careers fairs and careers services events.

Lots of top US universities do this and postgrad business schools that have strong placement do this.. why the exception here in the UK? Get rid of the smokes and mirrors; show prospective students hard data.

Posted from TSR Mobile

The data protection regime is different in the US - here, the more granular they make it, the more they hit the provisions of EU law on data protection, which are swinging. So that's a practical issue.

However, I agree with the principle and I think unis generally have been getting away with a lot of nonsense in their claims in past years.

Reply 164

Fullofsurprises

OP

Original post by She-Ra

Education is what you 'do'. Not what you 'get'.

This is a really bad precedence to set, do you your research, make a decision, work your socks off, be accountable. If you don't think it's right for you transfer. This just fuels a blame-culture

Can I ask how you square that general view with the fact that students are now paying fees and taking out huge loans at long term interest rates to be in those courses? Do you not feel that in that context, there is a need for vendor information to be accurate and complete?

I see this as being like house purchase - we are talking about very large sums of money.

Reply 165

Clearing and Applications Advisor

Original post by Princepieman

There should be a legal obligation for universities to produce granular employment/destinations reports for ever graduating year - showing: company, role, salary (+ other comp) and location or postgrad course/institution. Maybe even list employers that are affiliated with the university through society sponsorship, careers fairs and careers services events.

Lots of top US universities do this and postgrad business schools that have strong placement do this.. why the exception here in the UK? Get rid of the smokes and mirrors; show prospective students hard data.

This way, people will know straight away what they're getting themselves into with regards to their degree/uni choice and universities would have a vested interest in the success of their graduates.

A good example:
https://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/CAS_CPSurvey2016.pdf

Posted from TSR Mobile

I think there's been an outdated view that unis are worthy, impoverished institutions and can't /shouldn't afford to spend much on marketing - so it'd be wrong to burden them.

Reply 166

PQ

Original post by Princepieman

There should be a legal obligation for universities to produce granular employment/destinations reports for ever graduating year - showing: company, role, salary (+ other comp) and location or postgrad course/institution. Maybe even list employers that are affiliated with the university through society sponsorship, careers fairs and careers services events.

Lots of top US universities do this and postgrad business schools that have strong placement do this.. why the exception here in the UK? Get rid of the smokes and mirrors; show prospective students hard data.

This way, people will know straight away what they're getting themselves into with regards to their degree/uni choice and universities would have a vested interest in the success of their graduates.

A good example:
https://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/CAS_CPSurvey2016.pdf

Posted from TSR Mobile

That's unlikely to happen. The current (as in closed last Friday) DLHE is the final DLHE. HESA are moving to a new version that is collected 15 months after graduation https://www.hesa.ac.uk/innovation/outcomes/students
Given the longitudinal DLHE (2 years after graduation) struggles to get a response rate of 1/3 it's likely that responses will plummet and with low population sizes that means less data available publicly.

Reply 167

Tiger Rag

22

Original post by Luke7456

one specific university offered only 3 hours of class/lectures a week and if I you need extra support/help with anything you need to make an appointment two weeks in advance. Further I do not believe (though did not confirm) that they even had a library or uni computers. The fact that this university charges the same £9250 fees as everywhere else is just shockingly bad.

What uni and what course? My course was 12 hours, which imo was plenty for what the course was. I can't see how you could have done some 25 hours of teaching.

Reply 168

Original post by Luke7456

not quite sure how they can win this. I have not specifically investigated this course, though I did see a video specifically dissing this.

Anyway it is very apparent that different universities offer different values for money. There are clearly some universities which are value for money and some which are not. This is why I wonder how it is that they all charge the same fees.

For example I guessed in another students thread that he was at a specific university. mainly because during the application process i decided to look at a wide range of universities some good some moderate and some which I would assume were bad.

one specific university offered only 3 hours of class/lectures a week and if I you need extra support/help with anything you need to make an appointment two weeks in advance. Further I do not believe (though did not confirm) that they even had a library or uni computers. The fact that this university charges the same £9250 fees as everywhere else is just shockingly bad.

compare this with a university that offers 20 hours of classes/lectures a week has a library with 24/7 access lecturers with open door policy and recorded lectures etc.

one is clearly offering more value then the other. Now if the first uni charged say £3000 a year and the second university charged the full £9250 a year that might be fair.

However the issue is that its business its just trade hypothetically if I am willing to pay £25 for a bottle of water then clearly I am been ripped of but It is my responsibility to do the appropriate research as it is for others regarding their courses.

where I think there might be an argument is that most students are been supported by taxes eg student loans which they will not pay back themselves.

Here I think the UK population/government bearing the financial cost should have the right to put pressure on universities and limit course fees/not support courses for cases where value for money is clearly not there.

Hard to believe it now but when they brought in the £9000 fees the idea was that the very top unis would charge £9000 and the rest would choose to charge less... probably about £6000 according to Vince Cable.

What happened was that pretty much every uni immediately charged £9000 - obviously charging less than the maximum possible amount communicates the idea that your uni is less desirable and is therefore bad marketing.

Reply 169

username738914

Universities Forum Helper

Original post by PQ

That's unlikely to happen. The current (as in closed last Friday) DLHE is the final DLHE. HESA are moving to a new version that is collected 15 months after graduation https://www.hesa.ac.uk/innovation/outcomes/students
Given the longitudinal DLHE (2 years after graduation) struggles to get a response rate of 1/3 it's likely that responses will plummet and with low population sizes that means less data available publicly.

15 months is quite a long time, any reason why they chose to change this?

It's a shame really because lack of leaver data really holds back prospective students from gaining a good view of how well a university's "propspects" claims map to reality. Especially so for kids not from middle/upper middle class families.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 170

She-Ra

Clearing and Applications Advisor

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Can I ask how you square that general view with the fact that students are now paying fees and taking out huge loans at long term interest rates to be in those courses? Do you not feel that in that context, there is a need for vendor information to be accurate and complete?

I see this as being like house purchase - we are talking about very large sums of money.

You buy a house that you think feels right, you get a survey done and it tells you the house will continue to stand up, then you move in, your neighbours are a nightmare and there is a dead boiler and vintage electrical wiring from the 50s... it will cost you a lot more than you planned and all of a sudden it's not what you expected and you wonder whether the other bungalow would have been a better bet, that's what your heart really wanted but someone you trust/ an influencer told you the house you're in would pay off, it looked better, was long-term investment. You decided to go with that. Now you're kicking yourself, you would have felt far more comfortable in a house you loved and wanted to be..... sound familiar :wink:

It's a huge responsibility and a big investment and for a 17 year old who has never been coached in making these type of life/financial decision before. Most students don't even realise interest is applied at the moment the first installment hits their account on day one of uni. Uni finance is/will be reviewed - it's not clear enough.

University marketing needs to be more accountable.... I completely agree. But, the government made them a business, now they're having to respond like one and I don't think it's helping anyone. Because of fees students expect more, but what is "more" and how do universities adapt to that? Universities feel the pressure to differentiate against 100+ similar businesses, they're scrabbling for stats that set them apart, they're trying to say the right things to get bums on seats and some are being called out because they're lacking integrity and truth. That needs to happen. It's all a huge mess.

Also, there needs to be a culture shift more generally, young people being pushed into HE because it's the right thing to do is wrong. There needs to be a mindset change in schools and on a societal level. Schools look better in league tables if more of their kids go to uni, it's in their interest to get them to go. That needs to change.

I still think that students need to thoroughly research and take responsibility for their expectations and their actions (again based on research). They need to be given the space to make their own decision and say "no" if they don't want to go. They also need to make sure that when they're at uni they make it count - they commit fully, learn and upskill through extra-curricular

I'm not sure if I've answered your question :colondollar:

Reply 171

PQ

Original post by Princepieman

15 months is quite a long time, any reason why they chose to change this?

It's a shame really because lack of leaver data really holds back prospective students from gaining a good view of how well a university's "propspects" claims map to reality. Especially so for kids not from middle/upper middle class families.

Posted from TSR Mobile

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/innovation/records/reviews/newdlhe - there was a lot of consultation (although unlike with the government HESA don't publish the consultation responses). Presumably the sector pushed for 15 months...but it's always a balance between "giving graduates time to find work" and "keeping in contact with graduates". 6 months is already tricky but universities manage a 80% response rate...at 15 months the responses will be collected by a commercial survey company and not the university concerned...so the university wont be held accountable for lack of responses and has less incentive to collect contact details.

I can see big multi faculty universities putting a lot of effort into collecting and maintaining contact information for medicine and nursing graduates but getting a bit more laid back about philosophy and biology graduates...

Reply 172

Doones

Original post by Joinedup

Students looking at law degrees would probably like to know what proportion of graduates from each law course get training contracts - and that's a reasonable thing for them to wonder about imo... nobody will give them a straight answer about it though. Unis get away with saying that the course prepares them for X or meets the educational requirements for Z & publishing a cherry picked vignette about a graduate 2 years ago who made it. unistats is only able to tell them what proportion of graduates get 'professional jobs' which is a weak proxy for the information applicants actually want.

Yep, that would be good. Ditto for engineers going on to achieve CEng (which is a minority anyway, but could still be a useful measure to track).

Reply 173

Original post by Doonesbury

Yep, that would be good. Ditto for engineers going on to achieve CEng (which is a minority anyway, but could still be a useful measure to track).

There's a timescale problem with CEng (or other long term measurement) - unis bringing in a new course, however excellent, won't have anything to report for years. It could stifle innovation.

Arguably there's been too much innovation in general over the past decades but you can't be sure none of it has value.

E.g. once upon a time, not so long ago Warwick had no track record and now it's firmly in the TSR drool zone

Reply 174

Doones

Original post by Joinedup

There's a timescale problem with CEng (or other long term measurement) - unis bringing in a new course, however excellent, won't have anything to report for years. It could stifle innovation.

Yes true but LEO etc is starting to gain traction.

Incidentally, I note ARU's business courses on LEO do have a below average 5 year median salary (£23,700 vs average £26,300), but better than average unemployment (5.2% vs 7.5%)

Reply 175

Doones

Original post by J-SP

Factoring in regional differences £23,700 isn't too bad at all really.

Hmmm... Cambridge... :wink:

Reply 176

hannah00

18

Original post by J-SP

This is in fact the complete opposite. These universities are a huge benefit to both their local economy as well as the general economy. They provide a huge amount of value to their local society and economy.

like I said value in terms of jobs, actual content of education and value added is very poor

Reply 177

Original post by hannah00

like I said value in terms of jobs, actual content of education and value added is very poor

Value added rankings are an interesting idea.

We're told that unis are worth supporting because they're facilitating social mobility and the Sutton Trust is about getting disadvantaged students into prestigious universities...

But maybe ranking that way we'd start getting answers we're not comfortable with... an american ranking found that the big name universities there weren't really pulling their weight with the social mobility heavy lifting.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/news/us-universities-promoting-social-mobility

Reply 178

That Bearded Man

22

Original post by shadowdweller

It would be both; assuming you're looking for graduate level employment, it would still be in part because of your degree. I'm largely outlining that situation for the former part of the statement, however; if the degree is poor enough to be the sole reason for your lack of employment, then that should be apparent whilst you are there.

But that will put you at a disadvantage compared with other uni graduates. It is grossly unfair that people in my degree who needed to use an outdated coding system are disadvantaged against people from other unis who used the up to date program. "Transferable" skills are bull, that degree program automatically differentiates me as a lesser candidate because I've never used the programs required for Job A

Reply 179

shadowdweller

Volunteer Section Leader