The Student Room Group

Do you believe there are 2 genders

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Original post by Miss Maddie
Yeah, there are only 2 and you can't choose your gender either. For me, gender equates to sex. They're the same thing.


They aren't the same thing, it's kinda why there are two different terms.
Original post by Axiomasher
They aren't the same thing, it's kinda why there are two different terms.


They aren't the same thing because people don't want them to be the same thing. I don't care if someone wants to claim to be a different gender or identifies as something else. If they look like a man/woman I'm calling them a man/woman. Simple as that.
Original post by robbiecee2
That's coming from Oxford dictionary, not urban dictionary.

It's because they essentially are the same thing.

People are trying to redefine it to pretend that their mental disorder isn't a mental disorder.

We are not doing people who stuggle with gender identity disorder any favours by encouraging them to seek reassignment etc, as the statistics show - people are just as sad after they transition as they were before it, and the suicide rate is the same.


Oh you want to use the OED?

gender
NOUN
1. Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

Seriously, it's basically undeniable that gender roles are at least in part socially constructed, so what exactly is your problem with having different words to describe biological differences and cultural/social differences? They're just two different words describing two different concepts, and for some reason that bothers you. It's such a bizarre hill to die on. You're basically saying we're not allowed to have a word with this particular definition. ****ing crazy.
(edited 6 years ago)
Reply 143
Original post by CookieButter
Choosing to carry out behaviour that society associates with a certain sex does not confer a new identity on you. You, a female, deciding to behave in a way that is generally associated with men, does not change your identity in any way. You remain female. Cultural marxists believe that that is not the case.

Marxists, feminists and communists preach that there are more than two gender identities....that your feelings and behaviour confer new identities on you. They don't. A person who feels the world is flat does not change the oval reality of our world in any way. You see reality is independent of our feelings. If our feelings do not conform with it we are deemed misguided/insane.


But gender is not a reality. Yes I am female and if I look down there sure enough I still have a vagina, that is a fact. But I don't believe I should have to act out the gender that has been assigned to my sex and if I don't act it out then I'm not strictly female in gender anymore. Of course that doesn't change wider society's opinion about what the female gender entails but it means that I'm no longer it.

Also, your comparison of gender with the shape of the Earth is just silly. Gender is not a physical reality, that is sex.

By the way I'm in no means transexual or transgender but I like cars, sometimes don't like wearing skirts etc

And to be honest, gender is becoming even more blurred, it's common opinion now that females can play football, be good at maths and men can wear more feminine attire, be more emotional etc.

Where does that leave gender? No where.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Miss Maddie
They aren't the same thing because people don't want them to be the same thing. I don't care if someone wants to claim to be a different gender or identifies as something else. If they look like a man/woman I'm calling them a man/woman. Simple as that.


But a) having a penis and b) behaving in a way that your society generally associates with those who have a penis really are two different things, it's not complicated.
Original post by evian1232
I started this discussion in public and got mixed response, so what does TSR think?


Yes, there are actually 63 genders!
There are 69 genders :sexface:
Reply 147
Original post by Captain Haddock
Oh you want to use the OED?

gender
NOUN
1. Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

Seriously, it's basically undeniable that gender roles are at least in part socially constructed, so what exactly is your problem with having different words to describe biological differences and cultural/social differences? They're just two different words describing two different concepts, and for some reason that bothers you. It's such a bizarre hill to die on. You're basically saying we're not allowed to have a word with this particular definition. ****ing crazy.


Original post by Axiomasher
But a) having a penis and b) behaving in a way that your society generally associates with those who have a penis really are two different things, it's not complicated.



You people are missing the point, whether or not you believe that biological sex and gender are or are not the same thing is besides the point. Even if gender is a social construct (which I don't believe it is), it still doesn't mean that you can confer whatever gender you like onto yourself, and neither of you have argued that point. You are just arguing about the definitions and not really getting into the debate the OP was trying to set up.

Ones 'gender expression' is, I agree, socially constructed, but when we talk about 'gender' throughout the history of English we use it to mean man or women, male or female, not the way one expresses their biological sex.
Could trump say she is a female tomorrow and thus become the first woman US president in history? :holmes:
Reply 149
Original post by TSRFT8
I dont think the issue is you liking football or cars. The issue at hand is people are being forced to accept that a female can grow a penis and expect others to treat her as such. Further, people are being told not to say he/she and instead, it/they. This is pathetic and wrong. Identify as a laptop if you so wish, dont get others to follow suit.

Also, I think by forcing people to be "accepting" of what is genuinely a very concerning mental health issue, we are not allowing those who need help to actually access it. You cannot expect people to accept you as a female, just because you have put on a skirt, bra and wig. It does NOT work like that.


Bold 1) That is sex and is quite clearly unchangeable and I've never heard anyone being forced to accept something along the lines of what you've said.

Bold 2) That is gender and is easily changeable. In my view a man in sex can be a female in gender if he so wishes by taking on female gender behavior.
I believe there are more than 2 genders. I don't know how many there are but the existence of people who don't neatly fit into 'girl' or 'boy', 'female' 'male', clearly demonstrates that there isn't just 2.
Original post by robbiecee2
You people are missing the point, whether or not you believe that biological sex and gender are or are not the same thing is besides the point.



It's exactly the point. I'm not even going to consider anything else you wrote because this right here is, in fact, the point. You were trying to deny that the words 'gender' and 'sex' refer to different things, despite the fact they manifestly and demonstrably do. You can deny that gender is socially constructed all you want, but then you wouldn't be arguing that 'gender' and 'sex' are the same thing; you'd be arguing that there's no such thing as gender at all. It would also be extraordinarily stupid. All you have to do is ask yourself: does the social role of an Inuit woman from Nunavut differ from that of a woman from, let's say, Monaco? If your answer is 'yes', gender exists.
Original post by robbiecee2
...Even if gender is a social construct...it still doesn't mean that you can confer whatever gender you like onto yourself...


If we accept that an individual's gender is not actually determined by their biological sex then there's no obvious reason why their behaviour and identity cannot generate/signify their gender. If I aim to live, socially and culturally, as a female, and I 'feel like' I am a female, then why cannot my gender be that of 'female' even if my biological sex is male?
Original post by Miss Maddie
They aren't the same thing because people don't want them to be the same thing. I don't care if someone wants to claim to be a different gender or identifies as something else. If they look like a man/woman I'm calling them a man/woman. Simple as that.


That's a bit mean.
Reply 154
Original post by Captain Haddock
It's exactly the point. I'm not even going to consider anything else you wrote because this right here is, in fact, the point. You were trying to deny that the words 'gender' and 'sex' refer to different things, despite the fact they manifestly and demonstrably do. You can deny that gender is socially constructed all you want, but then you wouldn't be arguing that 'gender' and 'sex' are the same thing; you'd be arguing that there's no such thing as gender at all. It would also be extraordinarily stupid. All you have to do is ask yourself: does the social role of an Inuit woman from Nunavut differ from that of a woman from, let's say, Monaco? If your answer is 'yes', gender exists.


"not even going to consider anything else you wrote"
So you're not going to participate in the debate which the OP intended top open up? ok.
I will ask you then, do you beleive there are more than 2 genders?

I don't know how else I can say it to try and make you understand.
I'm trying to say that 'gender expression' or 'gender identity' (although I don't believe you are entitled to chose which sex you belong to based on the way you express your gender) more accurately fits your definition of 'gender'.

So for example, when you fill out a form and it asks you for your gender, does it say "male, female" or "well I'm male but I wear a little bit of makeup and act a bit gay so I could describe myself as female." ?
Reply 155
Original post by TSRFT8
1) You are oblivious to the amount of females/males or whatever you want to call them, going through "gender re-assignment"

2) The two are quite similar, albeit you may not agree. A female (in gender), doing male (gender) roles, is asking to be accepted as a male (sex). She is asking society to treat her as a male, by displaying attributes associated by males.

Further, I think this issue is more centred around these individuals wanting others to treat them for who they THINK they are, instead of who they REALLY are. Most people do not care if a male wants to wear a bra and display feminine attributes, the issue arises when said males, want society to treat them as females and are offended when they are not.

I also think you are looking at this from a very narrow view, this is a very broad issue. The issues are all interlinked in some ways, however, your perspective is very narrow. For example;

1) A male wanting to be female in behaviour - Where do we draw the line when it comes to bathrooms?
2) A female wanting to be male in behaviour - Where do we draw the line when it comes to sports teams, participation etc.


Well yes, I mean you can have surgery to have a **** instead of a vagina which is why even biology is not the 'be all, end all' (hope that's the correct expression) of the situation.

I don't think that's true. people who feel they are closer in character to the other gender are not being asked to be accepted as that gender's sex, simply the gender. These people still accept and don't deny what they have between their legs.

I guess the confusion arises when we don't know if the pronouns we use (he/she) refer to sex or gender. If it refers to sex, then I'm happy to keep referring to people based on what they were born with but if it refers to gender then I see no problem with referring to a male in sex who is female in gender as 'she'.

Lol, that's funny you think I'm the narrow minded one, you seem to be the one thinking of the world in black and white, this or that, one or the other.

I guess it has to be made clear what the bathrooms, sports teams etc are based on: sex or gender? Then the classification of people becomes pretty simple.
Original post by robbiecee2
"not even going to consider anything else you wrote"
So you're not going to participate in the debate which the OP intended top open up? ok.
I will ask you then, do you beleive there are more than 2 genders?

What I'm not going to do is let you get away with a 'that's not the point' cop-out when you yourself made it the point when you decided to be wrong on the issue.

I don't know how else I can say it to try and make you understand.
I'm trying to say that 'gender expression' or 'gender identity' (although I don't believe you are entitled to chose which sex you belong to based on the way you express your gender) more accurately fits your definition of 'gender'.

So for example, when you fill out a form and it asks you for your gender, does it say "male, female" or "well I'm male but I wear a little bit of makeup and act a bit gay so I could describe myself as female." ?


My definition of 'gender' is the definition of 'gender', or at least the primary definition. The word in this sense was coined by psychologists in the 1940s expressly to refer to the social roles of the sexes. Before that, it primarily referred to grammatical gender, or more broadly to a 'sort' or 'type' of any given thing. It was only occasionally used on its own to mean 'sex', and doing so was considered erroneous by some lexicographers, at that. We aren't hijacking the definition of gender. You are.
XY,YY,XX,YX

I'd say it is possible to further classy gender
I believe in angels.
Original post by gjd800
I believe in angels.


angels.jpg

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