Why are feminists so against women using their bodies to make money?
Now this isn't a rant at feminists, or an attempt to justify human trafficking, or any other stupid inane point you want to try and twist this into. (and please don't start making jokes about feminists being ugly etc, I want to keep this civil and see if anyone can actually come up with a good answer)
I'm merely very simply wondering why feminists are so against women using their good looks to make money. Recently there's been the issue with pit girls in motor racing. More locally to me there's been a movement to ban strip clubs in the city I live. People seem to give the impression these girls are being exploited, and if they genuinely were, were being forced to do it against their will, signed contracts not realising what they were getting into etc then I'd be the first to criticise it. But these girls are smart enough to know what they're doing (one interviewed on the news was a law student, so I sure hope she is) and are doing it by choice.
As someone rightly pointed out, if anything they're exploiting the men who visit such places. The give the illusion of a sexual connection and in return take the mens money.
So, if they're getting into the business knowing exactly what they're letting themselves in for, what's the problem?
I'm merely very simply wondering why feminists are so against women using their good looks to make money. Recently there's been the issue with pit girls in motor racing. More locally to me there's been a movement to ban strip clubs in the city I live. People seem to give the impression these girls are being exploited, and if they genuinely were, were being forced to do it against their will, signed contracts not realising what they were getting into etc then I'd be the first to criticise it. But these girls are smart enough to know what they're doing (one interviewed on the news was a law student, so I sure hope she is) and are doing it by choice.
As someone rightly pointed out, if anything they're exploiting the men who visit such places. The give the illusion of a sexual connection and in return take the mens money.
So, if they're getting into the business knowing exactly what they're letting themselves in for, what's the problem?
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I think that many people dislike this because women don't like seeing other women in jobs like prostitution or in a strip club. Some feminists think that these women should do something else, like run a business etc. because they are being objectified, or being treated like a service.
Personally I believe in equality (like most people) but almost don't want to call myself a feminist because of their 'reputation' and the crazy ones. I think that feminism should be about accepting and appreciating women (and men) who are sex workers, as they only exist because there is demand for sex. If feminism is good it would include ALL women who are at a disadvantage because of their gender.
Personally I believe in equality (like most people) but almost don't want to call myself a feminist because of their 'reputation' and the crazy ones. I think that feminism should be about accepting and appreciating women (and men) who are sex workers, as they only exist because there is demand for sex. If feminism is good it would include ALL women who are at a disadvantage because of their gender.
If women want to use their bodies to make money, that's their right, in my view. There's a real irony in feminists preaching women's empowerment but at the same time policing how women can use their sex appeal.
Stripping, for example, is no more exploitative then most other jobs. It's somebody using a skill or an asset about themselves to make cash for an employer. That's what work is. And I agree that these establishments are also exploiting their clientele. Men are spending their hard-earned cash just to see some boob, and it's easy money for whoever provides that.
Stripping, for example, is no more exploitative then most other jobs. It's somebody using a skill or an asset about themselves to make cash for an employer. That's what work is. And I agree that these establishments are also exploiting their clientele. Men are spending their hard-earned cash just to see some boob, and it's easy money for whoever provides that.
if only feminists didn't shout for absolute freedom for a woman to decide what to do with her bod and then... look down on women who sell it for money. Even when told in no uncertain terms by a woman who does so entirely voluntarily and for the money that it isn't a problem for her, feminists will still have to look for an explanation that fits their monolithic narrative. Yeah, she may be saying that but in reality... it's all Playboy's fault. Bless her, if only she'd let us help her...
Feminists tend to despise their better looking counterparts, i reckon thats a main factor. Also, they consider it pure objectification by men. I agree that it encourages the objectification though. The sexualisation isnt great.
The problem with feminism threads on TSR is they are dominated by the same internet intellectuals who have strong opinions yet display only a superficial knowledge of feminism. This thread is a good example. It gets tiresome reading " feminists think x " as if they speak with a unified voice.
The reality is different. Feminists holds a variety of views on sex work. Many of them are pro-sex work or at least pro-sex worker, although tend to be very critical of the related exploration and sexual violence.
The reality is different. Feminists holds a variety of views on sex work. Many of them are pro-sex work or at least pro-sex worker, although tend to be very critical of the related exploration and sexual violence.
(edited 5 years ago)
i haven’t come across many feminists like the one you’re describing, they don’t all seem to share the exact same views so you can’t generalise
I find it odd that across the internet when men are referred to, as soon as someone points out that it doesn't apply to them the original poster inevitably pipes up stating "well clearly I didn't mean all men". Don't you think it may be wise to apply the same reasoning here rather than just falling back on "well not all feminists..."?
Here is an attempt to break it down: equality means that men and women should be treated equally, correct? So, let us start with this premise then.
If, as you suggest, it is OK for women to strip off, and earn a living from their bodies, then why do we not see a similar objectifying of male bodies? That would be equality. Men and women, using their bodies as a transaction. That would constitute equality.
We do not see this though. We see only women being objectified, sexualised, and demeaned.
You are, if I may say, misinterpreting where the power dynamic lies. Women are not the gatekeepers of power (in your thesis, they earn money from men so therefore they hold all the cards). Do you imagine that women who sell their bodies for sex, feel that they are in control, that they have another choice to earn a living? Or are they - because all power has been taken from them - having to do this as a measure of last resort? Please realise this is not a business decision, it is desperation.
If you truly believe that being naked, trading sex, or being objectified constitutes power, then ask yourself why men aren't getting some of that action? If this is the ultimate expression of power, why do we not see powerful men doing this?
The bottom line is, for centuries, men have made the rules. This is not open to debate. Men have dominated the legislature, and all vestiges of power. Ergo women have been disadvantaged. If women were writing the rules, then what they contribute to society would be genuinely valued. At the moment it isn't. Women are still paid less than men for doing exactly the same job, and they have to try to keep a household running, have children, raise them, and go out to work. They are not valued for their contribution, but maligned for how they look.
I do not believe that it is productive to have a polarised debate where men are cast as evil, and women are cast as "weak". I think we should be working harder to help one another, and understand that for so long women have been treated as an underclass. That reflects badly on us as a society. Exploitation does not equal power. It is much like your man arguing that black people chose to be slaves! The way forward, where we all win, is men and women working together for the betterment of society. We should never aspire to anyone (man, woman or child) being demeaned, objectified, or exploited. That diminishes all of us. I believe we are only enriched by supporting one another, and empathy is the path to a better future.
If, as you suggest, it is OK for women to strip off, and earn a living from their bodies, then why do we not see a similar objectifying of male bodies? That would be equality. Men and women, using their bodies as a transaction. That would constitute equality.
We do not see this though. We see only women being objectified, sexualised, and demeaned.
You are, if I may say, misinterpreting where the power dynamic lies. Women are not the gatekeepers of power (in your thesis, they earn money from men so therefore they hold all the cards). Do you imagine that women who sell their bodies for sex, feel that they are in control, that they have another choice to earn a living? Or are they - because all power has been taken from them - having to do this as a measure of last resort? Please realise this is not a business decision, it is desperation.
If you truly believe that being naked, trading sex, or being objectified constitutes power, then ask yourself why men aren't getting some of that action? If this is the ultimate expression of power, why do we not see powerful men doing this?
The bottom line is, for centuries, men have made the rules. This is not open to debate. Men have dominated the legislature, and all vestiges of power. Ergo women have been disadvantaged. If women were writing the rules, then what they contribute to society would be genuinely valued. At the moment it isn't. Women are still paid less than men for doing exactly the same job, and they have to try to keep a household running, have children, raise them, and go out to work. They are not valued for their contribution, but maligned for how they look.
I do not believe that it is productive to have a polarised debate where men are cast as evil, and women are cast as "weak". I think we should be working harder to help one another, and understand that for so long women have been treated as an underclass. That reflects badly on us as a society. Exploitation does not equal power. It is much like your man arguing that black people chose to be slaves! The way forward, where we all win, is men and women working together for the betterment of society. We should never aspire to anyone (man, woman or child) being demeaned, objectified, or exploited. That diminishes all of us. I believe we are only enriched by supporting one another, and empathy is the path to a better future.
There's no problem with selling your body etc but i think the big issue raised is probably that it upholds the idea that woman are for men and that the one way they can make money is by appealing to men? Think about it, the idea of male strippers or prostitues is a lot less than that of female its seen as something a woman does and kind of takes away from it being hustle for everyone.I think many feel that partaking in such activities you're just encouraging the patriarchal society and the general conscience that you can "buy" women and their bodies they are worth nothing more. thats about all I can think of rn
Original post by LiyoS
Here is an attempt to break it down: equality means that men and women should be treated equally, correct? So, let us start with this premise then.
If, as you suggest, it is OK for women to strip off, and earn a living from their bodies, then why do we not see a similar objectifying of male bodies? That would be equality. Men and women, using their bodies as a transaction. That would constitute equality.
We do not see this though. We see only women being objectified, sexualised, and demeaned.
If, as you suggest, it is OK for women to strip off, and earn a living from their bodies, then why do we not see a similar objectifying of male bodies? That would be equality. Men and women, using their bodies as a transaction. That would constitute equality.
We do not see this though. We see only women being objectified, sexualised, and demeaned.
We see men being objectified on everything from comedy shows on TV, to strippers at hen does.
Original post by LiyoS
You are, if I may say, misinterpreting where the power dynamic lies. Women are not the gatekeepers of power (in your thesis, they earn money from men so therefore they hold all the cards). Do you imagine that women who sell their bodies for sex, feel that they are in control, that they have another choice to earn a living? Or are they - because all power has been taken from them - having to do this as a measure of last resort? Please realise this is not a business decision, it is desperation.
If you truly believe that being naked, trading sex, or being objectified constitutes power, then ask yourself why men aren't getting some of that action? If this is the ultimate expression of power, why do we not see powerful men doing this?
If you truly believe that being naked, trading sex, or being objectified constitutes power, then ask yourself why men aren't getting some of that action? If this is the ultimate expression of power, why do we not see powerful men doing this?
I'm not even interpreting anything so I'm not sure how I can be misinterpreting it. I'm merely relaying what various workers in these industries have said in interviews.
As previously mentioned, men are getting some of the action. I'm sure there'd be more male prostitutes as well if the dating game wasn't currently skewed so far in a woman's favour (again, this is coming from women, not my interpretation).
Original post by LiyoS
The bottom line is, for centuries, men have made the rules. This is not open to debate. Men have dominated the legislature, and all vestiges of power. Ergo women have been disadvantaged. If women were writing the rules, then what they contribute to society would be genuinely valued. At the moment it isn't. Women are still paid less than men for doing exactly the same job, and they have to try to keep a household running, have children, raise them, and go out to work. They are not valued for their contribution, but maligned for how they look.
I do not believe that it is productive to have a polarised debate where men are cast as evil, and women are cast as "weak". I think we should be working harder to help one another, and understand that for so long women have been treated as an underclass. That reflects badly on us as a society. Exploitation does not equal power. It is much like your man arguing that black people chose to be slaves! The way forward, where we all win, is men and women working together for the betterment of society. We should never aspire to anyone (man, woman or child) being demeaned, objectified, or exploited. That diminishes all of us. I believe we are only enriched by supporting one another, and empathy is the path to a better future.
I do not believe that it is productive to have a polarised debate where men are cast as evil, and women are cast as "weak". I think we should be working harder to help one another, and understand that for so long women have been treated as an underclass. That reflects badly on us as a society. Exploitation does not equal power. It is much like your man arguing that black people chose to be slaves! The way forward, where we all win, is men and women working together for the betterment of society. We should never aspire to anyone (man, woman or child) being demeaned, objectified, or exploited. That diminishes all of us. I believe we are only enriched by supporting one another, and empathy is the path to a better future.
I'm not going to start debating fallacies that bear little relevance to the OP.
1) that's objectifying women and saying their bodies are worth more than their minds
2)women, people in general, have so much more to offer, more potential, than satisfying the pleasures of men. That is NOT the life purpose of women.
2)women, people in general, have so much more to offer, more potential, than satisfying the pleasures of men. That is NOT the life purpose of women.
Original post by Danielnovels25
1) that's objectifying women and saying their bodies are worth more than their minds
2)women, people in general, have so much more to offer, more potential, than satisfying the pleasures of men. That is NOT the life purpose of women.
2)women, people in general, have so much more to offer, more potential, than satisfying the pleasures of men. That is NOT the life purpose of women.
What exactly are you referring to here?
Original post by Dheorl
What exactly are you referring to here?
"why are feminists so against women using their bodies to make money?"
Original post by Danielnovels25
"why are feminists so against women using their bodies to make money?"
But if the individual is fine with it, why shouldn't they have a choice? I don't think I was for one second suggesting that all women should have to use their bodies to make money.
Original post by Dheorl
But if the individual is fine with it, why shouldn't they have a choice? I don't think I was for one second suggesting that all women should have to use their bodies to make money.
"Choice" is pretty limited in today's world.
I know no one who would aspire to join that business. So I don't really think many women are doing it by choice.
And let's say hypothetically that someone did want to become a prostitute by choice, they would've probably been influenced at a young age to want that. So if we stopped encouraging prostitution, then women probably wouldn't even consider it as something they would ever want. In the end, it's not their choice, that they want to, it's that they think they want to because they've been influenced to think that way.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Danielnovels25
"Choice" is pretty limited in today's world.
I know no one who would aspire to join that business. So I don't really think many women are doing it by choice...
I know no one who would aspire to join that business. So I don't really think many women are doing it by choice...
I would agree that the overwhelming majority of women who sell sex for money have come to it from circumstances which makes the idea of 'choice' near irrelevant but that probably does still leave some women who have chosen it, presumably mostly because they are doing so in circumstances where they can gain wealth, and thus security, relatively quickly. I would argue the same for the porn industry, no doubt a high percentage of this is absolute exploitation of vulnerable women yet still with some who 'freely' participate. I'm not justifying either of these things just think it's not going to be 100% exploitation of the vulnerable/impressionable (even if it might be 95% that).
Original post by Danielnovels25
"Choice" is pretty limited in today's world.
I know no one who would aspire to join that business. So I don't really think many women are doing it by choice.
And let's say hypothetically that someone did want to become a prostitute by choice, they would've probably been influenced at a young age to want that. So if we stopped encouraging prostitution, then women probably wouldn't even consider it as something they would ever want. In the end, it's not their choice, that they want to, it's that they think they want to because they've been influenced to think that way.
I know no one who would aspire to join that business. So I don't really think many women are doing it by choice.
And let's say hypothetically that someone did want to become a prostitute by choice, they would've probably been influenced at a young age to want that. So if we stopped encouraging prostitution, then women probably wouldn't even consider it as something they would ever want. In the end, it's not their choice, that they want to, it's that they think they want to because they've been influenced to think that way.
Well for starters I wasn't referring so much to prostitutes in my OP, but "pit girls" and strippers etc. I guess more accurately perhaps girls who use the image of their body to make a living. If you wanted, the general premise could to a degree equally be applied to prostitutes, but that wasn't really the target of the discussion.
If you'd like to reply more in line with what the discussion is actually about then feel free, but with regards to your comment of prostitution, you're basically saying these women aren't intelligent enough to make their own independent choices? Why does there necessarily have to have been some influencing factor at a young age? Again, from what I've seen in interviews some women have simply moved to a big city, realised they can make more money having sex than bartending and like spending said money. What's wrong with that?
Again, as mentioned in the OP if girls are genuinely being exploited or forced against there will then I would be against it, which is why I steered clear of prostitution because it is an industry where that is obviously more common, in part because current legislation makes it harder to monitor. But as I say, if you'd like to respond to what was actually said in the OP then feel free.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Axiomasher
I would agree that the overwhelming majority of women who sell sex for money have come to it from circumstances which makes the idea of 'choice' near irrelevant but that probably does still leave some women who have chosen it, presumably mostly because they are doing so in circumstances where they can gain wealth, and this security, relatively quickly. I would argue the same for the porn industry, no doubt a high percentage of the absolute exploitation of vulnerable women yet still with some who 'freely' participate. I'm not justifying either of these things just think it's not going to be 100% exploitation of the vulnerable/impressionable (even if it might be 95% that).
Life goals shouldn't be to get wealthy, and I think women who sell sex for money were being influenced by those whose goals were to be wealthy, whatever the cost.
If you're a feminist then you'll appreciate the fact that a woman has the right to do whatever she wants with her own body.
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