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How much do junior doctors earn above their base pay?

Hey,

I was wondering how much a F1, and an F2 could prospectively earn above their base pay if they were willing to work very unsociable hours and very hard?

Reply 1

junior.doctor

You don’t exactly get a choice in it, apart from potentially trying to pick combinations of rotations in FY1 and 2 where there might be fewer / no oncalls for one or two of them. Each job will come with its set on-call pattern. This has to meet the conditions of the new contract regarding max numbers of overall hours and rest periods between runs of shifts etc. In England, where the new contract is in force, it is harder to give an exact number as it varies much more between individual jobs. In Scotland /.Wales, and what used to happen in England, is that most jobs with out of hours work would attract a ‘banding’ according to hours worked and proportion of unsociable hours. To be EWTD compliant, the highest banding realistically was 50% of base salary (ie receiving an additional 50% of your base salary on top), with most people receiving 40-50%. The base salary in the new contract is higher but the supplements are slightly lower. Realistically these days I have no clue whether they’re paying me correctly or not......

Reply 2

Anonymous #1

Original post by junior.doctor

Would it be realistic to say one can earn £35,000- 40,000 in Fy2 if they work the maximum over time and on-call , night and week ends?

Reply 3

*pitseleh*

Original post by Anonymous

Would it be realistic to say one can earn £35,000- 40,000 in Fy2 if they work the maximum over time and on-call , night and week ends?

That's the ballpark for what I earn now (gross earnings, obviously) as an FY2, and that's with doing a fairly standard pattern of on-calls - one non-resident on-call every 10 days in my first FY2 job, and 1:4 weekends / 1:8 nights for the second two FY2 jobs. Could earn quite a bit more than that by giving up extra weekends to locum, but at the moment I value my time outside of work too much to do that.

Reply 4

Anonymous #1

Original post by *pitseleh*

I'm fairly shocked. How does the Locum work as an Fy2? If someone did the maximally allowed work, within reasonable boundaries could they earn 45,000?

Reply 5

*pitseleh*

Original post by Anonymous

I'm fairly shocked. How does the Locum work as an Fy2? If someone did the maximally allowed work, within reasonable boundaries could they earn 45,000?

The locum for FY2 works the same as any other locum; you do your normal working week (48h average for most people in the hospitals I've worked in) and then you pick up additional shifts on your days off, either direct through the hospital or through an agency.

Yes, I would think someone could earn that in FY2. Again, obviously you don't take home anything like that much; after tax it's around £2k per month. Also, while there's no harm in considering the theoretical possibilities, I definitely wouldn't be banking (excuse pun) on earning that much without having actually started working.

It's something a bunch of us were talking about in my current hospital recently as there are a lot of locum shifts going - quite a few people said they'd like to work extra shifts to boost their salary but feel too wiped out by the regular job to pick up any more than a stray locum shift here or there.

Reply 6

Anonymous #2

any CMTs here on the new contract? Roughly how much do you make per month/year? I understand it is variable based on the rotation but I am curious as to what people are actually getting..

Reply 7

Anonymous #3

Most people earn higher than the base pay. I personally find it a bit misleading when juniors quote their base pay to try to illustrate how "badly paid" they are (though I'd also love to earn more money!).

Old contract, I earned (pre tax) ~32k in F1, and ~37k in F2 (F2 could have been higher, but I did AFP, so had an unbanded research placement).

Reply 8

Ghotay

Original post by *pitseleh*

Yes, I would think someone could earn that in FY2. Again, obviously you don't take home anything like that much; after tax it's around £2k per month

I'm earning 2k per month net in F1 on 50% banded. Surely it's more in F2

Reply 9

ForestCat

My trust helpfully gives a breakdown of salary per job(at least for the first one). So you can see exactly how much extra you get. No idea what it will translate to monthly.
So surgery works out a little more lucrative than my friend in medicine, because the 8 am starts bump it up slightly.
Also no idea what kind of banding this would have equalled previously
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Reply 10

Lionheartat20

Original post by Ghotay

I'm earning 2k per month net in F1 on 50% banded. Surely it's more in F2

The "new" contract had circa 10% base pay increase.
And other top-ups that are mainly 5% to 10% each or less.

In exchange for your 50% banding. The 50% banding is worth more - and you would be earning less in England for that same job.

According to the BMJ:

If you currently work a rota that attracts a 50% banding supplement - to earn the same amount under the new contract:

● Work one in four weekends, one night shift per month, and eight additional hours a week (on top of the base contract hours)
OR
● Work one weekend in two and seven night shifts a month (with top-ups from base hours).

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 11

Etomidate

Original post by Anonymous

any CMTs here on the new contract? Roughly how much do you make per month/year? I understand it is variable based on the rotation but I am curious as to what people are actually getting..

As you say, depends on the rota, but as a core trainee my current pay is £48k including all weekend allowances, anti-social hours etc. This comes out to roughly £2600 take home per month (after tax and student loans). I'm on a fairly standard rota including on calls, nights, weekends, averaging 47.25 hours a week, 1 in 5 weekends.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 12

Anonymous #2

Original post by Etomidate

is this on the new contract?

Reply 13

Anonymous #4

Original post by junior.doctor

with most people receiving 40-50%. The base salary in the new contract is higher but the supplements are slightly lower. Realistically these days I have no clue whether they’re paying me correctly or not......

why do people say most jobs are 40-50% banded? is this true in a particular trust or all over england & wales?

Original post by Ghotay

I'm earning 2k per month net in F1 on 50% banded. Surely it's more in F2

50% banded on avg for the entire f1 year? hat job are you doing - they all include on-call/night?

sorry if i come across naive, i dont really understand how the pay works. i'm about to start f1 this summer in wales. I think im one of the only ones to get allocated 3x banded jobs (most people got 1/3.. some even 2/3 unbanded) and im on 40% for all 3 jobs. what sort of jobs get 50% banding? how do they work this out..

thanks :smile:

Reply 14

junior.doctor

Original post by Anonymous

why do people say most jobs are 40-50% banded? is this true in a particular trust or all over england & wales?

50% banded on avg for the entire f1 year? hat job are you doing - they all include on-call/night?

sorry if i come across naive, i dont really understand how the pay works. i'm about to start f1 this summer in wales. I think im one of the only ones to get allocated 3x banded jobs (most people got 1/3.. some even 2/3 unbanded) and im on 40% for all 3 jobs. what sort of jobs get 50% banding? how do they work this out..

thanks :smile:

Banding is worked out based on two things - the overall number of hours you do, and the proportion of hours that are unsociable. You can predict that certain specialties that are fairly 24/7 in intensity are likely to need lots of out of hours people - ED, paeds, O&G tends to come to mind, there’ll be many more. Your banding will have a letter and a number. 1-3 is he number of hours, 1 being least - but realistically all banded jobs should be a 1 these days (\< 48hrs/wk ave) to be EWTD compliant. Band 2 and 3 should be fairly historic these days unless it’s awarded retrospectively for rotas that are later deemed to be non compliant. Numbers A-C relate to the proportion of antisocial hours (nights / evenings / weekends). So if most of your hours are antisocial, you’ll get a higher letter (A is highest, C is lowest). You’ll find within that that often different grades of seniority doing the same specialty will have different amounts of antisocial hours and therefore different banding. 1A is a 50% banding reflecting high proportion of our of hours with EWTD compliant total hours. 1B is 40%, again EWTD compliant total hours, but intermediate amount of out of hours. 1C is pretty rare. Most SHO and above jobs in acute specialties will generally have 50% (1A) banding certainly in paeds I’ve never done a job that was less than 1A.

There are clear rules to decide what counts as A and B for antisocial hours, and it’s then down to the hospital as to how they write rotas and decide the need for out of hours work and then apportion that work between different grades. Some hospitals have F1s doing lots of nights work and weekends, others may even not give F1s nights at all and put these on the SHOs. Some F1s don’t do ward cover for example, and only do clerking. That is all literally down to how the hospital writes the rota according to how they decide what hey need, and then once they’ve written it, they work out what banding it will be by applying the rules to work it out. So it’s not as if one hospital decides that 10 nights per rotation is 40% and somewhere else decides that 10 nights per rotation means 50%.

Reply 15

Ghotay

Original post by Anonymous

50% banded on avg for the entire f1 year? hat job are you doing - they all include on-call/night?

I was officially on three 50% banded jobs yes. One job (T&O) was actually 100% banded and has been for about 3 years because it's chronically understaffed and they always fail monitoring. Bear in mind I'm on the old contract because I'm in Scotland.

I've done acute med, T&O, and geriatrics. Each has had 14 night shifts per 4 month block, and I think 1/4 or 1/6 weekends. Pretty standards rotas

why do people say most jobs are 40-50% banded? is this true in a particular trust or all over england & wales?[/quote

This is true almost everywhere. Any general hospital job will be 40-50% banded. Even GP will usually be 40-50% banded as they usually provide weekend medical cover in hospital. Unbanded jobs are usually things like rehab, palliative, some rare supernumary jobs like F1 anaesthetics or something like that. Quite a small minority of jobs usually. I can't imagine what jobs people you know have that so few are banded

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 16

*pitseleh*

Original post by Ghotay

I'm earning 2k per month net in F1 on 50% banded. Surely it's more in F2

Yeah, not loads more though - like, £2,200 or something. On 40% banding equivalent.

Reply 17

indianboy123

hi i am going to shift to the uk soon, can you tell me if i earn around 2k per month in f1 , how much will i need to spend on an average for my food accommodation etc, or does the hospital provide that and will i manage to save and how much.. thankyou

Reply 18

nexttime

Original post by indianboy123

That entirely depends on where you are living and what you are spending.

If you go to a cheaper part of the country (South more expensive than North, Big cities more expensive than smaller), get cheap accommodation (e.g. by living with someone else), not doing an expensive commute, and living fairly frugally (not going out too much, sensible with food, only buying cheaper clothes when you need them) you can live on like £700 per month easily. You can save a lot.

The flip side is I knew an F2 paying £1200 per month just for her flat in London, and F1s who were spending like £150 on a night out drinking fancy cocktails, so they saved next to nothing!

Remember you will be expected to pay for things like exams as time goes by which can be very expensive, but equally, your pay goes up fairly quickly.