Gender pay gap Watch

Robertgalraith
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#1
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Is discrimination the primary cause of the gender pay gap?
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Robertgalraith)
Is discrimination the primary cause of the gender pay gap?
No. The primary cause is the desire of women to have career gaps in order to have children and look after them, and to limit their ambitions in favour of giving themselves scope to enjoy their families.
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Wired_1800
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Yes, historical discrimination has been the reason for gender and racial pay gap. However, I think two different issues have been mixed together. They are pay gap and pay discrimination.

Pay discrimination is when two people are paid different wages for doing the exact same job. For example, a black bus driver with the same experience and hours is paid £80 per hour while his white colleague is paid £100.

Pay gap is the average wage difference between groups. For example, the average pay for male bankers could be £150,000 while the average for female bankers could be £135,000 in the same bank.

People often argue about pay gap in a poor form to mean pay discrimination. Pay gap does exist whether it is across races, gender or ethnicities.

The solution is to promote more relevant women and ethnic minorities.
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wonderuss
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doesn't exist.




just thought i'd add that i'm a female.
Last edited by wonderuss; 8 months ago
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ltsmith
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It's not because a group of men sit in a room and decide "We're gonna pay the wimminz less because they are wimmin, hurr durr". It's because fewer women study lucrative subjects and thus have lower average pay, more women have family responsibilites and work part-time, women are more agreeable than men and as such they are less likely to negotiate for a raise or promotion.
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MrMusician95
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Yes, historical discrimination has been the reason for gender and racial pay gap. However, I think two different issues have been mixed together. They are pay gap and pay discrimination.

Pay discrimination is when two people are paid different wages for doing the exact same job. For example, a black bus driver with the same experience and hours is paid £80 per hour while his white colleague is paid £100.

Pay gap is the average wage difference between groups. For example, the average pay for male bankers could be £150,000 while the average for female bankers could be £135,000 in the same bank.

People often argue about pay gap in a poor form to mean pay discrimination. Pay gap does exist whether it is across races, gender or ethnicities.

The solution is to promote more relevant women and ethnic minorities.
And out of those average salaries are you sure it's only because of gender? People have found that men are tougher in salary negotiations, they ask for pay rises more often etc. I don't think if you control for every other factor, you will find a pay gap between men and women.
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Robertgalraith
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(Original post by Good bloke)
No. The primary cause is the desire of women to have career gaps in order to have children and look after them, and to limit their ambitions in favour of giving themselves scope to enjoy their families.
But what about the women who dont have children?
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RichPiana
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The gender pay gap doesn’t exist.

/thread
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MrMusician95
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(Original post by Robertgalraith)
But what about the women who dont have children?
Then I doubt if ALL factors are the same they will earn the same as male colleagues.

I had a colleague who told me she was sick and tired of earning 70% of what men do, all the women in my office earnt more than me. But that's always okay? When a woman earns more, but when a man earns more it must be discrimination.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Robertgalraith)
But what about the women who dont have children?
There isn't a rule that women with children must earn less or women without must earn more. However, those without have a greater opportunity to progress unhindered by children and childcare matters.
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MrMusician95
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(Original post by Good bloke)
There isn't a rule that women with children must earn less or women without must earn more. However, those without have a greater opportunity to progress unhindered by children and childcare matters.
This. It's always fine if a woman earns more. But if a guy does then it's sexism.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by MrMusician95)
And out of those average salaries are you sure it's only because of gender? People have found that men are tougher in salary negotiations, they ask for pay rises more often etc. I don't think if you control for every other factor, you will find a pay gap between men and women.
That is true, but it also forms part of historical discrimination and other factors including bias.

For example, if a male banker closes a big deal and demands a pay increase, it is claimed that he is likely to receive it. However, if a female banker does the same, she may not receive the pay rise even if she asks for one.

Also, because salaries are confidential, many people often women don't know what their counterparts are earning. A good example was at the BBC, where a female Global Bureau chief found out she was paid significantly less than all of her colleagues, who were all male. Out of four of them, the three male heads received salary increments more than 3 times whilst she only received 1.

The funny thing about that situation was that her performance feedback came back to show that she was performing better than the other men, but received less pay than them. Nobody did anything about it.

Another example, it was found out that many top law and accounting firms had a big pay gap. The reason was because of the historical presence of men as partners, where men tended to occupy top law and audit jobs.

Finally, there is a need to be more transparent about salaries and wages. This will ensure better conversations around pay gaps and pay discriminations.
Last edited by Wired_1800; 8 months ago
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
The funny thing about that situation was that her performance feedback came back to show that she was performing better than the other men, but received less pay than them. Nobody did anything about it.
That serves only to demonstrate poor skills in managing her own salary discussions, and being happy to be fobbed off with useless praise but no tangible reward.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Good bloke)
There isn't a rule that women with children must earn less or women without must earn more. However, those without have a greater opportunity to progress unhindered by children and childcare matters.
Do you think that if there were better provisions for children such as better childcare services and shared parental leave, then we may have a better system?

The clear issue is that women have historically been left with the kid while the men go to work. If the roles were switched, I strongly doubt many men esp millenials will do as good as they would without the burden of childcare.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Good bloke)
That serves only to demonstrate poor skills in managing her own salary discussions, and being happy to be fobbed off with useless praise but no tangible reward.
But how could she have known that she was being discriminated against? She may have assumed that her salary was the same as her colleagues.

A transparent process will reduce such issues, as everyone on the same grade knows the salary range of their grade and where they stand.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Do you think that if there were better provisions for children such as better childcare services and shared parental leave, then we may have a better system?

The clear issue is that women have historically been left with the kid while the men go to work. If the roles were switched, I strongly doubt many men esp millenials will do as good as they would without the burden of childcare.
Well, each family makes its own decisions on this, and parental leave is not very relevant, as the period of childcare lasts for decades. I suggest you look after the children in your family and take the long-term salary hit, leaving your wife to strike a blow for identity politics.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by MrMusician95)
This. It's always fine if a woman earns more. But if a guy does then it's sexism.
I agree with this.
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
But how could she have known that she was being discriminated against? She may have assumed that her salary was the same as her colleagues.

A transparent process will reduce such issues, as everyone on the same grade knows the salary range of their grade and where they stand.
She wasn't being discriminated against in any other sense than her skills let her down. A man with the same level of skills would have been treated in the same way.

Publishing salaries is generally very much a no-no in the private sector. Obviously, the BBC will be making sure its employees carry their salaries around on lapel badges very soon.
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MrMusician95
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
Do you think that if there were better provisions for children such as better childcare services and shared parental leave, then we may have a better system?

The clear issue is that women have historically been left with the kid while the men go to work. If the roles were switched, I strongly doubt many men esp millenials will do as good as they would without the burden of childcare.
I agree with this. I think it would help the country enormously if men got as much leave as women. Now some companies are letter you share it which is good.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Good bloke)
Well, each family makes its own decisions on this, and parental leave is not very relevant, as the period of childcare lasts for decades. I suggest you look after the children in your family and take the long-term salary hit, leaving your wife to strike a blow for identity politics.
That is true, but some men have voiced their desire to take more time off to provide child support. The average paternity leave is currently 2 weeks while the maternity leave is 9 months paid. If there is a change to make it 6 months each, then the women may get the chance to return to work.

Also, if the woman wears the big-boy pants and earns more than her partner, then there is a high chance that the family’s resources take a bigger hit as she would be expected to be off for 9-12 months.
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