Religion doesn't make you who you are Watch

username3444162
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I've seen so many people look down on people who don't believe in the existence of God, I've seen many people treated differently because of this, myself included, being an Atheist doesn't make me who I am, family will turn there back on me and many others, but I am not different.

I am a human, like many others, I am funny, emotional, sentimental, angry, annoyed and calm, I am everything that makes me a human being and not believing in God does not change that, not one bit.

I say all this to people like me, who's family have turned there back on them, if they can't find one reason to hold on to you because of the 100s of things wrong with you then they weren't your family to begin with.
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katf
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I find the opposite. I know so many people, both online and in person, who have acted like I must be stupid because I'm religious and I believe in God. Those people don't stay in my life very long for obvious reasons.

Other atheists act like because some religions are homophobic, they all are and all religious people are therefore homophobes. I'm a quaker. We have been fighting for equal marriage for decades. I'm also bisexual. I wouldn't be a member of the religious society of friends if it was homophobic.

Or that raising your child religious is somehow brainwashing them and not allowing them to choose. Quakers aren't allowed to become members of the religious society of friends until they're 16. Children are educated about quakerism, but not indoctrinated and not pressured to stay.
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Harold Saxon
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(Original post by katf)
Or that raising your child religious is somehow brainwashing them and not allowing them to choose. Quakers aren't allowed to become members of the religious society of friends until they're 16. Children are educated about quakerism, but not indoctrinated and not pressured to stay.
Indoctrination - "the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically."
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katf
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(Original post by Harold Saxon)
Indoctrination - "the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically."
Key word being uncritically. Children's meetings encourage asking questions. We also believe in equality, so kids are allowed to question and criticise. Exposing my kids to my religion and explaining why I follow it isn't indoctrination. They are free to disagree or ask questions. It's no different to raising a child as an atheist. Quakerism isn't a religion based on an ancient book. It exists between members, and each quaker has an equal voice in the doctrine. None of us accept the religion uncritically.

Quakerism isn't a religion of force. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's literally a religion of peace and equality. Fun fact, we don't swear an oath in court. We make an affirmation. Quakerism isn't based on indoctrination, quite the opposite in fact.
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Leviathan1611
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well what if you choose to have your opinions and way of life determined by your religion? doesn't that basically make you who you are?
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by katf)
I find the opposite. I know so many people, both online and in person, who have acted like I must be stupid because I'm religious and I believe in God.
Why do you think that is?

I don't underestimate the power of indoctrination.
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katf
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
Why do you think that is?

I don't underestimate the power of indoctrination.
A superiority complex. That's why some atheists are so judgemental about people who don't agree with them. What, as a Quaker, I define as God is probably different to the definition that many other religions have. I chose to be a quaker. I wasn't brought up quaker. I started reading about it, and I looked into the religion. It just feels right and it's what I believe in. It was my choice to become a member of the religious society of friends. As a quaker, we are all equal. We don't have a dedicated preacher. We practice unguided worship, we sit in silence unless moved by God to speak.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by katf)
Or that raising your child religious is somehow brainwashing them and not allowing them to choose. Quakers aren't allowed to become members of the religious society of friends until they're 16. Children are educated about quakerism, but not indoctrinated and not pressured to stay.
Children tend to believe what their parents do. Many talk about what they believe as if it were fact, when there's no evidence for it. Quakerism isn't the biggest risk to society though.
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RogerOxon
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(Original post by katf)
A superiority complex. That's why some atheists are so judgemental about people who don't agree with them. What, as a Quaker, I define as God is probably different to the definition that many other religions have. I chose to be a quaker. I wasn't brought up quaker. I started reading about it, and I looked into the religion. It just feels right and it's what I believe in. It was my choice to become a member of the religious society of friends. As a quaker, we are all equal. We don't have a dedicated preacher. We practice unguided worship, we sit in silence unless moved by God to speak.
Evidence is superior to a feeling, IMO. Anyone thinking that they're "superior" to others isn't doing themselves any favours.
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Axiomasher
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(Original post by katf)
Key word being uncritically. Children's meetings encourage asking questions...
But presumably the children receive the same well-rehearsed answers to their questions so as to reinforce the 'truth' of the religion. To this extent allowing or even encouraging children to ask questions about the religion their parents want them to follow is just another aspect of indoctrination.
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katf
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(Original post by Axiomasher)
But presumably the children receive the same well-rehearsed answers to their questions so as to reinforce the 'truth' of the religion. To this extent allowing or even encouraging children to ask questions about the religion their parents want them to follow is just another aspect of indoctrination.
Try going to one, before you come to the conclusion about what they're like. It's actually against Quakerism to proselytise. We don't attempt to convert people, or force our religion on others.
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TensorTympani
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Don't worry everyone the problems will clear because life is a simulation.
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Justvisited
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
I don't underestimate the power of indoctrination.
Nor underestimate the power of indoctrination to persuade the indoctrinated that they're not indoctrinated.

“I had one reviewer tell me that he didn’t care what the data said, he knew that what I was finding wasn’t possible,” says Schweitzer. “I wrote back and said, ‘Well, what data would convince you?’ And he said, ‘None.’”
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Axiomasher
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(Original post by katf)
Try going to one, before you come to the conclusion about what they're like. It's actually against Quakerism to proselytise. We don't attempt to convert people, or force our religion on others.
I'm not suggesting here that the children of Quakers (or those of other religions) are being forced to believe but presumably the parents have a strong desire for their kids to recognise the 'truth' and reap the spiritual benefits of their own beliefs and which will not fail to be reflected in how their children's religious education is pursued by them. Unless you are going to suggest that Quakers are more or less indifferent to what their children believe with regard to religion. Encouraging children to ask questions in this context doesn't automatically fall outside of the methodologies of indoctrination (and indoctrination as a concept doesn't imply force); questions and answers might even be a very effective way to get children 'on side' before they are old enough to ask tougher ones or consider with more critical skills the given answers.
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Obolinda
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Ok, I agree.
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katf
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(Original post by Axiomasher)
I'm not suggesting here that the children of Quakers (or those of other religions) are being forced to believe but presumably the parents have a strong desire for their kids to recognise the 'truth' and reap the spiritual benefits of their own beliefs and which will not fail to be reflected in how their children's education is pursued by them. Unless you are going to suggest that Quakers are more or less indifferent to what their children believe with regard to religion. Encouraging children to ask questions in this context doesn't automatically fall outside of the methodologies of indoctrination (and indoctrination as a concept doesn't imply force); questions and answers might even be a very effective way to get children 'on side' before they are old enough to ask tougher ones or consider with more critical skills the given answers.
Except you can't become a member until you're 16. We also don't purport to have any type of guaranteed path to heaven or the like. There is no promised benefit from being a Quaker. We just try to do what is fair, and promote peace. And equality, hence why Quakers have been performing same gender wedding ceremonies for decades.
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Axiomasher
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(Original post by katf)
Except you can't become a member until you're 16. We also don't purport to have any type of guaranteed path to heaven or the like. There is no promised benefit from being a Quaker. We just try to do what is fair, and promote peace. And equality, hence why Quakers have been performing same gender wedding ceremonies for decades.
Well, that's very admirable (that's not sarcasm, I know it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes) but this makes me curious, do Quaker parents keep their Quakerism secret from their children until they are 16? You can see where I'm going with this.
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katf
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(Original post by Axiomasher)
Well, that's very admirable (that's not sarcasm, I know it's hard to tell on the internet sometimes) but this makes me curious, do Quaker parents keep their Quakerism secret from their children until they are 16? You can see where I'm going with this.
Of course not. Do atheist parents? I think the kid would eventually wonder why mum goes out every Sunday morning, wouldn't they? It's more raising your kids with certain values and ethics.
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Axiomasher
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(Original post by katf)
Of course not. Do atheist parents? I think the kid would eventually wonder why mum goes out every Sunday morning, wouldn't they? It's more raising your kids with certain values and ethics.
Exactly, so it's not quite fair to suggest there's automatically an absence of indoctrination of the children of Quakers by their parents just because they can't go to the official meetings until they are 16.
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Obolinda
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(Original post by katf)
Of course not. Do atheist parents? I think the kid would eventually wonder why mum goes out every Sunday morning, wouldn't they? It's more raising your kids with certain values and ethics.
I think the issue is that even if a child is encouraged to question in Church, the people answering are Quakers. They're not going to criticise or counteract any of their own teachings. I don't think indoctrination is brainwashing and I think it's inevitable when growing up around beliefs that are quite dogmatic and you're not really exposed to criticisms. I don't think Quakerism or indoctrination is a totally bad thing, it doesn't just happen in religious contexts.


Would I indoctrinate my children as an atheist? Umm, I don't know what to say.

Jonny: “Mum, we talked about God at school today. Do you believe in God?”


Mum: “Some people believe there is a god; some believe there are many gods, and some believe there are none. Some gods are long forgotten, others are still worshiped. There have been thousands of gods and religions over the years. Most of them disagree with each other, so they can’t all be true. Almost always people believe in the same religion and the same god their parents believe in. As for me, I don’t believe in any gods because I have never seen any evidence that they exist. What do you think?”

If this is indoctrination, I have no problem with it. What belief is being indoctrinated?
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