Stupid leave voters on question time with their stupid analogies for "no deal"...
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Original post by Azeee
You lost me at brink of breaking down - the single market and customs union is anything but. If it were that bad then no deal wouldn’t be such a catastrophic outcome that it is forecasted to be. You might think otherwise, but I deal in facts and experts, not keyboard warriors.
Go and educate yourself before writing another text wall of bs.
Go and educate yourself before writing another text wall of bs.
So the rise of anti-EU movements, the German recession and disobedience from a number of member parties to EU control isn’t signs of the EU breaking down? You’d have to deluded if you think it’s fine. I laughed when I saw “I deal in facts and experts”, you clearly are confused.
Original post by Daigan
I work in an industry that will be pretty much immune to brexit.
ermm is it
i) funeral services
ii) stand-up comedy
iii) dunkirk re-enactment
?
Original post by cuber314159
The EU will not give us a good deal because if they did so and we did well out of it then it would encourage other countries to leave as well, therefore the least worst option overall is to leave without a deal.
Right now it is the best option because ironically it would lead to a better deal
Original post by the bear
ermm is it
i) funeral services
ii) stand-up comedy
iii) dunkirk re-enactment
?
i) funeral services
ii) stand-up comedy
iii) dunkirk re-enactment
?
i) Us british will be happy to dump our bodies and our families bodies in recycling facilities to make brexit a success.
ii) We'll import good comedy from tbe states.
iii) Reinactments of Americans saving british asses are always a success.
Regardless, no, i don't work in any of those industries.
Original post by Daigan
i) Us british will be happy to dump our bodies and our families bodies in recycling facilities to make brexit a success.
ii) We'll import good comedy from tbe states.
iii) Reinactments of Americans saving british asses are always a success.
Regardless, no, i don't work in any of those industries.
ii) We'll import good comedy from tbe states.
iii) Reinactments of Americans saving british asses are always a success.
Regardless, no, i don't work in any of those industries.
iv) proof reading ?
The bigotry and pure ignorance displayed on this thread is simply off the chart.
What a way to dismiss the majority of the country. Actually when you take into account on average Leave voters are statistically older with greater life's experience and knowledge it says far more about the intellectual level of the creaters on here than it does about the majority of the country they are trying to insult.
What a way to dismiss the majority of the country. Actually when you take into account on average Leave voters are statistically older with greater life's experience and knowledge it says far more about the intellectual level of the creaters on here than it does about the majority of the country they are trying to insult.
Original post by the bear
iv) proof reading ?
Proof reading ? Or proof reading?
Original post by Burton Bridge
The bigotry and pure ignorance displayed on this thread is simply off the chart.
What a way to dismiss the majority of the country. Actually when you take into account on average Leave voters are statistically older with greater life's experience and knowledge it says far more about the intellectual level of the creaters on here than it does about the majority of the country they are trying to insult.
What a way to dismiss the majority of the country. Actually when you take into account on average Leave voters are statistically older with greater life's experience and knowledge it says far more about the intellectual level of the creaters on here than it does about the majority of the country they are trying to insult.
Age does not equate to experience, knowledge or intellect. It's merely the number of full calendar years which somebody has been alive - nothing more.
It is a given fact that the majority of people in this country are not economic experts. Yet despite that, people who do not know the first thing about economics are convincing themselves of wild economic theories which directly contradict the conclusions of the vast majority of economists all around the world about the economic consequences of the no-deal scenario -- People are convinced of things which have absolutely no evidence nor substance behind them; merely wishful thinking which contradicts people with decades of experience; including global business leaders, finance ministers and central bank governors who all have the weight of in-depth technical analysis to support their position. These aren't just experts in the UK or EU but in many other countries all around the world.
It is within everybody's human rights to believe that they know better than people whose education, expertise and experience in a complex matter such as economics and globalisation far outweighs their own; but doing so is both arrogant and stupid.
(edited 5 years ago)
Oh so it's fine to belittle anyone who disagrees with you.
Could I just put forward somthing to you, these large businesses leaders, the ones with huge off shore tax avoiding bank accounts. You know the ones that close factories down in the UK to build in Poland for cheaper running costs while keeping the price of their products the same while selling them to the neighbourhoods they have destroyed. Those guys whom push branding onto us and close local small businesses down whom actually spend money locally simulating the economy. Do you not think it is possible they just might have some biast and a little political motivation behind their claims?
Or am I just stupid ignorant fool to think this? I mean it's not like these people gift millions to politicians to push their agendas on to us. I don't know whom or what I was thinking to question the far superior intelligent of a few young people on a forum, they obviously know far more about life previous to the EEC than the people whom actually lived in those times.
Silly me eh..
Could I just put forward somthing to you, these large businesses leaders, the ones with huge off shore tax avoiding bank accounts. You know the ones that close factories down in the UK to build in Poland for cheaper running costs while keeping the price of their products the same while selling them to the neighbourhoods they have destroyed. Those guys whom push branding onto us and close local small businesses down whom actually spend money locally simulating the economy. Do you not think it is possible they just might have some biast and a little political motivation behind their claims?
Or am I just stupid ignorant fool to think this? I mean it's not like these people gift millions to politicians to push their agendas on to us. I don't know whom or what I was thinking to question the far superior intelligent of a few young people on a forum, they obviously know far more about life previous to the EEC than the people whom actually lived in those times.
Silly me eh..
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Burton Bridge
Oh so it's fine to belittle anyone who disagrees with you.
Could I just put forward somthing to you, these large businesses leaders, the ones with huge off shore tax avoiding bank accounts. You know the ones that close factories down in the UK to build in Poland for cheaper running costs while keeping the price of their products the same while selling them to the neighbourhoods they have destroyed. Those guys whom push branding onto us and close local small businesses down whom actually spend money locally simulating the economy. Do you not think it is possible they just might have some biast and a little political motivation behind their claims?
Or am I just stupid ignorant fool to think this? I mean it's not like these people gift millions to politicians to push their agendas on to us. I don't know whom or what I was thinking to question the far superior intelligent of a few young people on a forum, they obviously know far more about life previous to the EEC than the people whom actually lived in those times.
Silly me eh..
Could I just put forward somthing to you, these large businesses leaders, the ones with huge off shore tax avoiding bank accounts. You know the ones that close factories down in the UK to build in Poland for cheaper running costs while keeping the price of their products the same while selling them to the neighbourhoods they have destroyed. Those guys whom push branding onto us and close local small businesses down whom actually spend money locally simulating the economy. Do you not think it is possible they just might have some biast and a little political motivation behind their claims?
Or am I just stupid ignorant fool to think this? I mean it's not like these people gift millions to politicians to push their agendas on to us. I don't know whom or what I was thinking to question the far superior intelligent of a few young people on a forum, they obviously know far more about life previous to the EEC than the people whom actually lived in those times.
Silly me eh..
Do you realise that the country in the EU which has the biggest problem with tax avoidance is the UK, which refuses to crack down on its own tax havens such as the Cayman Islands and Bermuda? The EU made it abundantly clear that it wanted the UK to take more action against those places following the release of the Panama Papers, and the UK Govt has done absolutely nothing to fix the problem. But, as with many things, the EU has absolutely no control over the UK's tax affairs and has been powerless to force the UK to deal with the tax havens, or even the companies avoiding tax.
It's interesting that you mention Poland; when the UK received an enormous influx of Polish workers due to the lack of jobs in Poland. By the way, business leaders who are looking to manufacture cheap goods have been offshoring to countries like China and India for decades -- not something that involves the EU in any way whatsoever. Also, both China and India are countries which we keep hearing the UK wants a free trade deal with, so you can expect much more of that kind of thing in the future. And besides, manufacturing is increasingly automated -- if the jobs hadn't moved to China, then they'd have been taken by computers instead.
I wonder whether you could share the information backing up your claims about businessmen gifting millions to politicians? The EU itself does not receive any political donations because it is wholly funded by its member states. As for political donations in the UK to individual politicians and parties, there are extremely strict rules about transparency, so such large political contributions will be a matter of public record.
By the way, the UK had previously been known internationally as the "sick man of europe" due to decades of economic difficulty that it had endured after the war, and before it joined the EEC. The moniker was eventually dropped some time after the UK joined the EEC. The UK went on to become one of the most successful economies in the world during the 80s, 90s and 2000s, and was even the fastest growing EU economy after the dust finally settled from the 2008 financial crash, all the way up to 2016 in fact. All of this happened during its membership of the EU.
Finally, with the 'sick man' moniker aside, the UK is no longer in the 1970s, so whatever 'experience' those people had 40+ years ago is completely irrelevant. Whatever strange fantasies some people may have about "good old days", the year is now 2019 and Globalisation means that all of the major economies in the world are heavily inter-connected - The UK's economy in 2019 is heavily dependent upon international business for investment to sustain jobs and generate economic growth - the various political slogans which attempt to elude to some mythical idea of the UK somehow being able to cope on its own are a delusion with no basis in fact nor reality -- afterall, it has been 2 and a half years, and not a single person in the world has yet conjured up any kind of actionable or realistic plan explaining how things are actually going to work with the UK being on its own - so yet another example of people who are clueless about economics and globalisation believing that they know better than those who have the experience and expertise in these areas.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by winterscoming
And that is the real crux of the problem -- the whole thing is just extremely complex; Doris from Bolton is affected by economics regardless of whether she cares about it or understands it. If her living costs rise faster than her income, then she will be poorer; if she is employed in a job which depends upon single market access for her employer to make a profit, then she may lose her job if her employer ends up in a situation where the business is less profitable, or maybe even not profitable at all and needs to close. She may not care about economics, but she will care about her quality of life and ability to pay for her own living costs.
Then there's the wider impact on the public finances; Doris from Bolton probably needs public services; all of which are funded by tax revenues (and especially from corporation tax - e.g. big banks in the City which pay around £70bn per year in tax), so if the economy takes a hit (even if the hit is "only temporary" for a few years, which seems to be the justification for why this is OK -- "it will be fine in the long term", etc.) then those public services will be cut back for a very long time for even taken away (especially under a Tory govt.). She needs police to keep her town safe, hospitals in case she falls ill, the kids who live near her need a good school education so that they don't end up turning to a life of crime, etc.
While i'm on the subject, there's a real problem that all the analysis is being rejected by the cheerleaders in some parts of the media, the ERG and their allies, using ad-hominem attacks such as "establishment elite" upon anybody who has substantial experience and expertise in the area of economics. These are cynical and malcious attempts to shout-down and ridicule those who attempt to explain why economics are important to peoples' every-day lives.
Absolutely anybody who attempts to talk publicly about the economic reality and how it can affect real people's every-day lives is consistently dismissed as if they're telling some kind of made-up children's bogeyman story. Those who are dismissing the claims have absolutely no credible counter-argument of their own to make, so they stoop down to ad-hominem personal character attacks instead. Frankly, dismissing anybody using terms like "establishment elite" is a logical fallacy. Anybody whose only rebuttal to an argument is to attack the character of whoever is making the argument by calling them a name has already lost that argument.
The trend of believing that experts are wrong is extremely worrying because it defies all logic and is an absurdly irrational thing to say. I personally cannot fathom how anyone can genuinely be persuaded to believe that those who have an education in the subject or significant experience working in finance/banking are somehow clueless about economics or that their words are simply to be rejected/ignored -- quite the opposite; those people are the only ones who truly have the skills required to be able to perform a sufficiently in-depth analysis of the situation and make any kind of reasoned, well-measured predictions on what the possible outcomes are; and while many people may not like the conclusions, they are the conclusions which have been reached almost unanimously across the whole of the planet (especially in countries outside the EU, such as the US, Japan, China, Australia...).
Then there's the wider impact on the public finances; Doris from Bolton probably needs public services; all of which are funded by tax revenues (and especially from corporation tax - e.g. big banks in the City which pay around £70bn per year in tax), so if the economy takes a hit (even if the hit is "only temporary" for a few years, which seems to be the justification for why this is OK -- "it will be fine in the long term", etc.) then those public services will be cut back for a very long time for even taken away (especially under a Tory govt.). She needs police to keep her town safe, hospitals in case she falls ill, the kids who live near her need a good school education so that they don't end up turning to a life of crime, etc.
While i'm on the subject, there's a real problem that all the analysis is being rejected by the cheerleaders in some parts of the media, the ERG and their allies, using ad-hominem attacks such as "establishment elite" upon anybody who has substantial experience and expertise in the area of economics. These are cynical and malcious attempts to shout-down and ridicule those who attempt to explain why economics are important to peoples' every-day lives.
Absolutely anybody who attempts to talk publicly about the economic reality and how it can affect real people's every-day lives is consistently dismissed as if they're telling some kind of made-up children's bogeyman story. Those who are dismissing the claims have absolutely no credible counter-argument of their own to make, so they stoop down to ad-hominem personal character attacks instead. Frankly, dismissing anybody using terms like "establishment elite" is a logical fallacy. Anybody whose only rebuttal to an argument is to attack the character of whoever is making the argument by calling them a name has already lost that argument.
The trend of believing that experts are wrong is extremely worrying because it defies all logic and is an absurdly irrational thing to say. I personally cannot fathom how anyone can genuinely be persuaded to believe that those who have an education in the subject or significant experience working in finance/banking are somehow clueless about economics or that their words are simply to be rejected/ignored -- quite the opposite; those people are the only ones who truly have the skills required to be able to perform a sufficiently in-depth analysis of the situation and make any kind of reasoned, well-measured predictions on what the possible outcomes are; and while many people may not like the conclusions, they are the conclusions which have been reached almost unanimously across the whole of the planet (especially in countries outside the EU, such as the US, Japan, China, Australia...).
I never said hypothetical Doris wasn’t impacted by Economics. It wouldn’t be controversial to say Bolton is not the richest part in the U.K, therefore when people of Bolton hear that GDP is up by f% and wages are down by x%, you can understand why they may not care too much as they don’t see a huge impact where they live.
On the second issue you raise, the reason I would say people are so negative towards experts in their TVs saying X Y and Z will happen is not because of a misquoted Micheal Gove or the ERG, but because at the end of the day these are only forecasts. Forecasts which have been wrong in the past, thus people are sceptical about them. I’m not saying that they are always wrong, that would be a silly route to go down. But talking everything at face value is equally unwise.
Oh Tommy you think you know it all domt you mate?
Tax avoidance is larger than you are being LED to believe, while you are on to something slightly about the UK Conservative government being reluctant to crack fully down on tax avoidance, the problem is not the evil UK and rest of the world with the great EU - champions of the people taking center stage on the fight against tax avoidance. I don't normally provide links because I think it's pointless however
https://www-consultancy-eu.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.consultancy.eu/news/amp/1641/europe-home-to-6-of-the-globes-top-10-tax-havens-ireland-tops-list?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#aoh=15479730087301&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.consultancy.eu%2Fnews%2F1641%2Feurope-home-to-6-of-the-globes-top-10-tax-havens-ireland-tops-list
I mentioned factories moving to Poland bacause a major manufacturer and important contributer to our local employment has just closed and moved to Poland and Germany, was not aware I was not allowed to quote things which happen in the real world?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/leisure/10768270/Imperial-Tobacco-calls-time-on-last-UK-factory.html
Regarding weathly people funding political parties, maybe you should educate me on how you believe parties like the Conservative party are funded?
I'm not going to lie, I have written this off the cuff work in progress as I read your post on my phone, scroll read, scroll down write a bit. I've just got to you're disregard for elderly people's experiences and struggles just shows the type of bigoted person you are so I'm not reading anymore of your 'work' .
Your correct I'm a fool, your so much more intelligent than me maybe I shouldn't have a vote. Maybe the answer is to brainwash everyone in institutional education which is largely funded by the EU (hey) before they qualify for a vote?
Yes that should work those pesky idiots whom want to leave Europe, what knuckle daggers!
Tax avoidance is larger than you are being LED to believe, while you are on to something slightly about the UK Conservative government being reluctant to crack fully down on tax avoidance, the problem is not the evil UK and rest of the world with the great EU - champions of the people taking center stage on the fight against tax avoidance. I don't normally provide links because I think it's pointless however
https://www-consultancy-eu.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.consultancy.eu/news/amp/1641/europe-home-to-6-of-the-globes-top-10-tax-havens-ireland-tops-list?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#aoh=15479730087301&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.consultancy.eu%2Fnews%2F1641%2Feurope-home-to-6-of-the-globes-top-10-tax-havens-ireland-tops-list
I mentioned factories moving to Poland bacause a major manufacturer and important contributer to our local employment has just closed and moved to Poland and Germany, was not aware I was not allowed to quote things which happen in the real world?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/leisure/10768270/Imperial-Tobacco-calls-time-on-last-UK-factory.html
Regarding weathly people funding political parties, maybe you should educate me on how you believe parties like the Conservative party are funded?
I'm not going to lie, I have written this off the cuff work in progress as I read your post on my phone, scroll read, scroll down write a bit. I've just got to you're disregard for elderly people's experiences and struggles just shows the type of bigoted person you are so I'm not reading anymore of your 'work' .
Your correct I'm a fool, your so much more intelligent than me maybe I shouldn't have a vote. Maybe the answer is to brainwash everyone in institutional education which is largely funded by the EU (hey) before they qualify for a vote?
Yes that should work those pesky idiots whom want to leave Europe, what knuckle daggers!
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by That'sGreat
So the rise of anti-EU movements, the German recession and disobedience from a number of member parties to EU control isn’t signs of the EU breaking down? You’d have to deluded if you think it’s fine. I laughed when I saw “I deal in facts and experts”, you clearly are confused.
I think brainwashed is more accurate than deluded. I deal in facts and experts not keyboard warriors, he needs to define the criteria for a keyboard warrior as well but being careful the irony could be equally amusing
Stupid remain voters thinking the worlds gonna end and no deal causes an apocalypse
Original post by Burton Bridge
Original post by Burton Bridge
I'm not going to lie, I have written this off the cuff work in progress as I read your post on my phone, scroll read, scroll down write a bit. I've just got to you're disregard for elderly people's experiences and struggles just shows the type of bigoted person you are so I'm not reading anymore of your 'work' . Ah here we go - the name-calling. Yes, what an intelligent way to conduct a discussion - not that I am particularly surprised - it perfectly sums up one of my points from my first post in this thread.
"When one resorts to ad-hominem attacks they have already lost the argument."
So I shall just leave it here by returning to my original point; when evaluating the likely outcome of the no-deal scenario, it's a choice between two things really:
1) The overwhelming number of seasoned economists all around the world from totally different backgrounds and different countries who have an enormous wealth of expertise and experience and who have performed countless in-depth analysis of the situation based on real data, and all arrived at much the same conclusion.
2) A dreamy, nostalgic, rose-tinted fantasy about the country "returning to it's glory days".
The fact that anybody could even entertain the second option as a valid argument against the first is nothing short of delusional.
Original post by winterscoming
Ah here we go - the name-calling. Yes, what an intelligent way to conduct a discussion - not that I am particularly surprised - it perfectly sums up one of my points from my first post in this thread.
"When one resorts to ad-hominem attacks they have already lost the argument.
"When one resorts to ad-hominem attacks they have already lost the argument.
Oh mate your hilarious, can you not see the irony in your statement
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Burton Bridge
Oh mate your hilarious, can you not see the irony in your statement
Being that I have not called you any names at any point, there's no irony, sorry to disappoint you.
but your defending the point veiw that the majority of the country are stupid!Have a nice day mate, see you in another topic
Original post by Burton Bridge but your defending the point veiw that the majority of the country are stupid!
Have a nice day mate, see you in another topic
but your defending the point veiw that the majority of the country are stupid!Have a nice day mate, see you in another topic
So now a strawman too. Yes this is getting tedious. Good day!.
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