Only 95% of UK adults think the Holocaust occurred

Original post by Jebedee

I don't see why it's a problem? We have freedom of religion which is just belief, so what's the difference?

Yes and how much harm did those beliefs cause? Religious beliefs have been responsible for untold harm over the generations.Even the holocaust actually.Afterall it was the Jews who crucified the messiah.

Holocaust denial is a problem because if you don't learn from the mistakes of the past then you are doomed to repeat it.Do you think it started with the gas chambers? It didnt.It starts with words and demonization of the "other".

Reply 63

AperfectBalance

Original post by old_dude

Difference is that GPO was never implemented fully. In effect, it resulted in the servitude of the Slavs, since the Nazis needed them for the war effort. The Jews were hunted and exterminated mercilessly; they could not escape their fate.
Of course, the Nazis' plans was to ultimately remove every non-Aryan from the Earth, but they never did that. Once again, the Holocaust is more talked about than the mass-killings of the Slavs because no other genocide has been more elaborated than the extermination of the Jews, while there are (many) other examples in history of mass-killing and ethnic cleansing. The Holocaust is unique.

the holocaust was never completed yet it resulted in many millions of deaths generalplan ost was never completed yet resulted in 11m+ deaths and this was not soldiers or the occasional civillian being shot this was a systematic plan, such as in the starvation plan where crops and grain were purpously denied to slavs or where slaves were forced to do manual labour untill they died, or shipped off to death/concentration camps exactly like the jews or even just shot on the side of the road. the holocaust is NOT unique

Reply 64

AperfectBalance

Original post by Rs5644

Yes and how much harm did those beliefs cause? Religious beliefs have been responsible for untold harm over the generations.Even the holocaust actually.Afterall it was the Jews who crucified the messiah.

Holocaust denial is a problem because if you don't learn from the mistakes of the past then you are doomed to repeat it.Do you think it started with the gas chambers? It didnt.It starts with words and demonization of the "other".

I think people fail to see that some bloke going "yeah I dont think it is real" is quiiiiiiite a big step from mass extermination, I dont agree with them but making it against the law is counterproductive

Reply 65

Eva.Gregoria

Original post by Jebedee

I don't see why it's a problem? We have freedom of religion which is just belief, so what's the difference?

We don’t learn history simply because of its fascinating nature, we learn it to make sure that the same mistakes don’t happen again. If a significant proportion of the population start denying that certain events even exist, this starts to become dangerous. I’m all for freedom of belief but if someone starts stating that the sky is polka dotted purple in the face of evidence saying otherwise, then that person will be regarded as an idiot, like others of similar intelligence.

Also it’s just plain moronic and disrespectful to the survivors and family members of survivors of the holocaust who must be tearing their hair out at the sheer idiocy.

Reply 66

This is a well-respected polling organisation, not a bunch of shysters, and they claim the sample is representative of the whole adult population and suitably weighted, including the elderly. A larger sample size would only be more accurate if it were much, much larger. I'm sure they would supply more information iof you asked them but you may not have the knowledge to use what they tell you.

https://www.hmd.org.uk/news/we-release-research-to-mark-holocaust-memorial-day-2019/

That people uneducated in statistics describe the sample as ******** says more about them than the sampling. It's rather like the opinion of the 5% who don't believe in the holocaust - worthless.

Reply 67

I am not being confrontational at all. I merely told you your initial statement was wrong, as a matter of information. It was you that chose to confront me about that. The relationships between margins of error, confidence intervals and sample sizes for given populations are a matter of statistical fact, not opinion, just as Pythagoras' Theorem is mathematically solid

Reply 68

ap.ferro

12

Only 95%. That's a hugely large number. Would be very different if 95% think it didn't happen.

We are taught about the holocaust, but what about thehe Armenian Genocide for example? And Turkey still denies that.

People are entitled to their own opinion, no matter how warped they may be. It still kind of amazes me how people can deny the holocaust despite all the evidence, but oh well

Reply 69

Making a conclusion about your knowledge based on your statement (which proves to be correct and confirmed by you) is confrontational? A shocking confrontation.

Reply 70

Sheperd23

Original post by Notoriety

No one is interested in how annoyed a random TSR user is. Stop going on about it.

was i talking to you

Reply 71

Notoriety

22

Original post by Kangaroo17

was i talking to you

I have 10 rep gems, kid. I can talk to whomsoever I wish, and expect not to get back chat.

Reply 72

username4350740

Original post by AperfectBalance

I think people fail to see that some bloke going "yeah I dont think it is real" is quiiiiiiite a big step from mass extermination, I dont agree with them but making it against the law is counterproductive

No it's better to educate than to ban things.But I'm sure people didn't think we'd have another world war so soon after the first one or that thousands of Germans would be complicit in the Holocaust. Berlin at the time was one of the most progressive places for gay rights.Not long after they were in concentration camps.

The point is that we mustn't think the German citizens at that time were a different species.They weren't.They were literally the same people as us just with different language and culture and less tech.It can happen anywhere and we say never again but human nature doesn't change.And it generally doesn't start with gas chambers.First it starts with discrimination and hate.Hitler didn't exactly publicly declare his intention to exterminate Jews.At least not at first.

Reply 73

Original post by Rs5644

And it generally doesn't start with gas chambers.First it starts with discrimination and hate.Hitler didn't exactly publicly declare his intention to exterminate Jews.At least not at first.

He did actually. In Mein Kampf, published in 1925, eight years before he came to power, he bemoaned that Jews had not been gassed at the beginning of the war as he said it would have led to lower war casualties. He also said, speaking of the Jews, "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated". There were other passages that alluded to genocide too.

Mind you, most people who read Mein Kampf do fall asleep quite readily so most people probably miss it.

Reply 74

old_dude

Original post by AperfectBalance

the holocaust was never completed

The extermination of the Jews was quite complete in the areas controlled by the Nazis.

Original post by AperfectBalance

generalplan ost was never completed yet resulted in 11m+ deaths and this was not soldiers

There were much more Slavs than Jews, you can't compare the number of victims like that.

Original post by AperfectBalance

or the occasional civillian being shot this was a systematic plan, such as in the starvation plan where crops and grain were purpously denied to slavs or where slaves were forced to do manual labour untill they died, or shipped off to death/concentration camps exactly like the jews or even just shot on the side of the road. the holocaust is NOT unique

You are confusing extermination camps with concentration camps. It was not the same. I say again, the Jews were immediately shipped to death camps, not the Slavs. The occupation of Eastern Europe was inhumane, but the Nazis did not seek to eradicate them (at least, not in the short-term).

Reply 75

Sheperd23

Original post by Notoriety

I have 10 rep gems, kid. I can talk to whomsoever I wish, and expect not to get back chat.

Idc. Come back when you have a better stance than calling me kid.
And i'm trying to make a valid point here? Read it or not.

If you don't care then kindly leave.

Reply 76

AperfectBalance

Original post by old_dude

The extermination of the Jews was quite complete in the areas controlled by the Nazis.

There were much more Slavs than Jews, you can't compare the number of victims like that.

The extermination of the Jews was quite complete in the areas controlled by the Nazis.

Incorrect

There were much more Slavs than Jews, you can't compare the number of victims like that.
So one jewish life is automatically worth more than a slavic one because there are more ?

You are confusing extermination camps with concentration camps. It was not the same. I say again, the Jews were immediately shipped to death camps, not the Slavs. The occupation of Eastern Europe was inhumane, but the Nazis did not seek to eradicate them (at least, not in the short-term).
They literally had a plan to exterminate and deport 45 million slavs (deport to work in labour camps to death in siberia) so yes it 100% can

Reply 77

old_dude

Original post by AperfectBalance

So one jewish life is automatically worth more than a slavic one because there are more ?

You said that more Slavs died than Jews ("the holocaust was never completed yet it resulted in many millions of deaths generalplan ost was never completed yet resulted in 11m+ deaths"). You need to look at the percentage of people who died in each group. 55% of the Jews living in the areas controlled by the Nazis and their allies died, against 17% for Poland--the country that suffered the most under the Nazis (and half of this number of 17% were Jewish deaths).

Original post by AperfectBalance

They literally had a plan to exterminate and deport 45 million slavs (deport to work in labour camps to death in siberia) so yes it 100% can

But they did not do it. Their priority was to exterminate the Jews.

Reply 78

username358506

20

Original post by old_dude

You said that more Slavs died than Jews ("the holocaust was never completed yet it resulted in many millions of deaths generalplan ost was never completed yet resulted in 11m+ deaths"). You need to look at the percentage of people who died in each group. 55% of the Jews living in the areas controlled by the Nazis and their allies died, against 17% for Poland--the country that suffered the most under the Nazis (and half of this number of 17% were Jewish deaths).

But they did not do it. Their priority was to exterminate the Jews.

Approximately 16 million Soviet civilians died: 10 million due to military activity and crimes against humanity; and 6 million due to war-related famine and disease.

The USSR had a Jewish population of 2.8 million in 1939. The lowest estimate of Soviet Jews killed is 700,000; the highest is 1.1 million.

If we compare and contrast the roughly 15.3 - 14.9 million non-Jewish Soviet civilians that killed with the widely accepted 6 million European Jews that were killed, his point that "more Slavs died than Jews" is unquestionable; and this is without taking into account the 3 million non-Jewish Polish civilians, the 140,000 - 500,000 Soviet POWs, the 10.6 million Soviet military personnel, or the 1 - 1.5 million Yugoslavs that were killed.

Regarding your point that "they did not do it", indeed, the Nazis did not exterminate every single Slav, however, likewise, they did not exterminate every single Jew in Europe. The fact that they were unable to exterminate the Slavs does not detract from the fact that the Nazis considered the Slavs as sub-humans, and, had Germany defeated the USSR, the Slavs would have received the same treatement as the Jews: enslavement and extermination albeit over a prolonged period of time.

Also, the priority of the Nazis was not to exterminate the Jews, it was to defeat the Soviet Union and thus end the war on two fronts; and with the gargantuan resources Germany would have at its disposal, force Britain into suing for peace or face inevitable conquest. Once that had been achieved, extermination or deportation to Madagascar, which was Heinrich's first plan, would have occurred.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 79

TheMcSame