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That's a terrible way to defend it, just because it hadn't been illegal at the time to remove your child's genitals hardly means that it was ok to do so.
Note: getting a lot of replies on this thread, I'll hopefully respond to all these eventually but I can't read all the quotes right now.
It is real enough. You can't just pretend that people with gender identity issues don't exist, or that it can all be solved purely through therapy. Until we invent some kind of mind conditioning machine (which is a pretty terrifying idea to be honest), you're not going to be able to cure gender dysphoria any better than you could cure homosexuality or having a sweet tooth. Changing someone's body is infinitely easier than changing someone's mind, which is why physical treatments are generally used on patients with dysphoria, though therapy and counselling is still an essential part of the whole process.
The child in question was 16 when they undertook the surgery. 16 year olds can consent to their own medical treatment. Her actions were perfectly legal at the time and the child chose her own path.
Best to wait and see what the conclusions are, but clearly there are enough people in the world that give a damn about supporting trans people for charities like Mermaids to exist.
I'm not saying it's made up, but the accusations that what she did was illegal are baseless. Otherwise, she'd have been tried and convicted by now, it happened years ago.
So boobs don't exist?
It's not really relevant to this thread so I don't think it's worth continuing on this train of thought. You're right that there isn't necessarily a simple solution to this, but TBH gender neutral toilets don't need to be that much of a stretch. Pretty much every home has one, and most disabled loos are also usable by both genders.
Evidence of doctors being bullied into changing how they work? The NHS controls what treatments are available and which are not, individual doctors certainly have a say in this but they can't work outside their employers' remit.
So if somebody sues Nurofen tomorrow because it didn't cure their headache does that prove that paracetamol is harmful?
There's a lot of misrepresentation on both sides, really. But strangely enough it's only one side that continually argues that a bunch of armchair activists must know better than WHO, the NHS, and basically every medical professional in the field who's worth a damn.
That study does not support your conclusion. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html
All I promote is what's recommended by scientific bodies, what has been proven to work in prior cases and what is still the best solution to an otherwise awful problem to deal with. It may not be a perfect solution by any means but neither is chemotherapy, and there's no army of rabid twitter posters trying to ban that.
A psychiatrist commenting on biology? Yeah, clearly that's something we should focus on instead of the many, many medical professionals who disagree with him.
Original post by paul514
And here we have it, you BELIEVE that someone THINKING they are the opposite sex inside is that same as something that is manifestly real.
The rest of us on planet earth know that is not the case, this is why they have a mental health condition called gender dysphoria.
If people like you could agree on that then the debate in general would be how to treat these people for their mental health condition correctly.
The rest of us on planet earth know that is not the case, this is why they have a mental health condition called gender dysphoria.
If people like you could agree on that then the debate in general would be how to treat these people for their mental health condition correctly.
It is real enough. You can't just pretend that people with gender identity issues don't exist, or that it can all be solved purely through therapy. Until we invent some kind of mind conditioning machine (which is a pretty terrifying idea to be honest), you're not going to be able to cure gender dysphoria any better than you could cure homosexuality or having a sweet tooth. Changing someone's body is infinitely easier than changing someone's mind, which is why physical treatments are generally used on patients with dysphoria, though therapy and counselling is still an essential part of the whole process.
Original post by yudothis
Yes, she did. She went to Thailand to perform a procedure on her son that is illegal in the UK. It has since been made illegal in Thailand. Why are you protecting someone like this?
The child in question was 16 when they undertook the surgery. 16 year olds can consent to their own medical treatment. Her actions were perfectly legal at the time and the child chose her own path.
Original post by yudothis
If there wasn't anything to the accusations, no invesigations would have even begun. And yes, it is well known that there are rich males interested in gender ideology. No surprise there. And yes, you are right, it is headline grabbing to write taxpayer funded. I take that back.
Best to wait and see what the conclusions are, but clearly there are enough people in the world that give a damn about supporting trans people for charities like Mermaids to exist.
Original post by yudothis
Dude, what are you talking about? There is a documentary about the whole thing that she is a part of. This isn't made up. What are you on???
I'm not saying it's made up, but the accusations that what she did was illegal are baseless. Otherwise, she'd have been tried and convicted by now, it happened years ago.
Original post by yudothis
But it doesn't. With the exception of some intersex people, a male has a penis and a female has a vagina.
So boobs don't exist?
Original post by yudothis
Not really. It is a key debate topic. And as far as I know, most public toilets are sex-segregated and people are trying to change that.
It's not really relevant to this thread so I don't think it's worth continuing on this train of thought. You're right that there isn't necessarily a simple solution to this, but TBH gender neutral toilets don't need to be that much of a stretch. Pretty much every home has one, and most disabled loos are also usable by both genders.
Original post by yudothis
No it is not. Educate yourself. There is more and more evidence of this coming out if you'd bother to look for it.
Evidence of doctors being bullied into changing how they work? The NHS controls what treatments are available and which are not, individual doctors certainly have a say in this but they can't work outside their employers' remit.
Original post by yudothis
Right back atcha. If you believe the lobby lie that they are safe, then I pity you. No, but a lawsuit is proof that the drug is harmful.
So if somebody sues Nurofen tomorrow because it didn't cure their headache does that prove that paracetamol is harmful?
Original post by yudothis
I didn't say they are not. I said the results are massively misrepresented. The actual rate of suicide is less than 1%. To abuse the results of this highly biased questionnaire is decidedly harmful - it goes against all guidance on suicide reporting. I dare you for once to actually do your research and check out e.g. the Samaritan guidelines on suicide reporting. I dare you.
There's a lot of misrepresentation on both sides, really. But strangely enough it's only one side that continually argues that a bunch of armchair activists must know better than WHO, the NHS, and basically every medical professional in the field who's worth a damn.
Original post by yudothis
What you believe is irrelevant - the truth is that this is a consensus across studies into long-term results of transitioning. This isn't about belief. This is fact.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/
Took me 5 seconds to google. First link that came up. I seriously wonder where you get your information from.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/
Took me 5 seconds to google. First link that came up. I seriously wonder where you get your information from.
That study does not support your conclusion. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html
Original post by yudothis
You are deluded and promoting child abuse.
All I promote is what's recommended by scientific bodies, what has been proven to work in prior cases and what is still the best solution to an otherwise awful problem to deal with. It may not be a perfect solution by any means but neither is chemotherapy, and there's no army of rabid twitter posters trying to ban that.
Original post by yudothis
The former head of psychatry at one of the premier medical insitutions in the world is "some reactionary with no medical background"? I guess people like him are just dismissed as transphobic bigots. But above you also denied that medical professionals are scared for speaking up. Neat, isn't it, either you agree or you're abused and harassed as a bigot. You sure have an excuse for everything.
A psychiatrist commenting on biology? Yeah, clearly that's something we should focus on instead of the many, many medical professionals who disagree with him.
Original post by Dez
gender neutral toilets don't need to be that much of a stretch. Pretty much every home has one, and most disabled loos are also usable by both genders.
That is a pretty dishonest response, to be frank, which ignores a number of salient points for the sake of a cute dismissal. Disabled toilets are sex neutral because they accommodate only one user (with space for an invited carer and specialist adaptations). Homes have sex neutral toilets because the public safety question of predation by strangers is not an issue in homes, neither is there the issue of low throughput by female users causing queues in public spaces.
Original post by Good bloke
So you think surgery can change a fully-functioning man into a fully-functioning woman? And vice versa. has that ever been done?
"Fully functioning" means different things to different people. Most people who undergo sex reassignment surgery feel its made a positive change to their lives.
Original post by generallee
And it isn't as though, even if "successful," it makes that person a real man or a real woman. It doesn't. There is no surgery on the planet that can offer a "cure" so as to make someone born with a penis able to bear a child in their post modern, pretend womb, or a woman born with a vagina able to inseminate another woman through their post modern, pretend penis.
This is just a BS no-true-scotsman argument. Medical science always has limitations, that doesn't mean we simply refuse to treat patients just because we can't 100% fix everything that might be wrong with them.
Original post by Good bloke
That is a pretty dishonest response, to be frank, which ignores a number of salient points for the sake of a cute dismissal. Disabled toilets are sex neutral because they accommodate only one user (with space for an invited carer and specialist adaptations). Homes have sex neutral toilets because the public safety question of predation by strangers is not an issue in homes, neither is there the issue of low throughput by female users causing queues in public spaces.
As I just said in my post (in the bit you carefully edited out), I agree that a simple solution isn't necessarily going to work for this particular issue. Since it's barely relevant to the thread topic though, I don't see the point in debating it further.
Original post by Dez
"Fully functioning" means different things to different people. Most people who undergo sex reassignment surgery feel its made a positive change to their lives.
Well, no it doesn't. Fully-functioning means what it says. What you describe is 'not fully-functioning at all but it is the best I can achieve'. Or, in this context, 'I'd like to be a girl and I know this isn't achieveable but at least I can look a bit like one'.
Original post by Dez
This is just a BS no-true-scotsman argument. Medical science always has limitations, that doesn't mean we simply refuse to treat patients just because we can't 100% fix everything that might be wrong with them.
This is just a BS no-true-scotsman argument. Medical science always has limitations, that doesn't mean we simply refuse to treat patients just because we can't 100% fix everything that might be wrong with them.
No, YOUR "gender is a socal construct" post modern dogma is the BS argument. And it is truly dogma because not subject to proof or disproof but divinely revealed by "gender studies" pseudo academics.
I don't accept that we are what we self identify as, that if I say I am Napoleon, I am Napoloeon and get everyone to treat me as such and call me Napoleonphobic if I don't, and get me investigated by the police. I don't accept that at all, because I am not Napoloeon and to consider myself so to be would be a mental illness.
But let's accept your premise for the sake of argument, let's say that gender IS a socal construct. The uncomofrtable truth for the trans "community" is that the vast majority of westerners (let alone the whole of humanity) do NOT accept them as real mean and real women. Trans individuals are regarded by most of "society" as neither one thing nor the other. That is how they are consructed to be, even if the Wokestapo try to enforce a different social outcome by enlisting the police to ensure compliance to "acceptable" thinking.
So even in its own terms your argument is total bo11ocks.
Original post by generallee
No, YOUR "gender is a socal construct" post modern dogma is the BS argument. And it is truly dogma because not subject to proof or disproof but divinely revealed by "gender studies" pseudo academics.
I don't accept that we are what we self identify as, that if I say I am Napoleon, I am Napoloeon and get everyone to treat me as such and call me Napoleonphobic if I don't, and get me investigated by the police. I don't accept that at all, because I am not Napoloeon and to consider myself so to be would be a mental illness.
But let's accept your premise for the sake of argument, let's say that gender IS a socal construct. The uncomofrtable truth for the trans "community" is that the vast majority of westerners (let alone the whole of humanity) do NOT accept them as real mean and real women. Trans individuals are regarded by most of "society" as neither one thing nor the other. That is how they are consructed to be, even if the Wokestapo try to enforce a different social outcome by enlisting the police to ensure compliance to "acceptable" thinking.
So even in its own terms your argument is total bo11ocks.
I don't accept that we are what we self identify as, that if I say I am Napoleon, I am Napoloeon and get everyone to treat me as such and call me Napoleonphobic if I don't, and get me investigated by the police. I don't accept that at all, because I am not Napoloeon and to consider myself so to be would be a mental illness.
But let's accept your premise for the sake of argument, let's say that gender IS a socal construct. The uncomofrtable truth for the trans "community" is that the vast majority of westerners (let alone the whole of humanity) do NOT accept them as real mean and real women. Trans individuals are regarded by most of "society" as neither one thing nor the other. That is how they are consructed to be, even if the Wokestapo try to enforce a different social outcome by enlisting the police to ensure compliance to "acceptable" thinking.
So even in its own terms your argument is total bo11ocks.
Wokestapo 😂😂😂
Stealing that one
The child in question was 16 when they undertook the surgery. 16 year olds can consent to their own medical treatment. Her actions were perfectly legal at the time and the child chose her own path.
The procedure is illegal in the UK. I never said anything else. That is why she did it in Thailand.
Best to wait and see what the conclusions are, but clearly there are enough people in the world that give a damn about supporting trans people for charities like Mermaids to exist.
People believed the earth was flat and anti-vaxx was a thing. Good on you, such a great argument "others support it".
I'm not saying it's made up, but the accusations that what she did was illegal are baseless. Otherwise, she'd have been tried and convicted by now, it happened years ago.
What she did is illegal in the UK hence the need to go to Thailand.
So boobs don't exist?
Utterly pointless comment.
It's not really relevant to this thread so I don't think it's worth continuing on this train of thought. You're right that there isn't necessarily a simple solution to this, but TBH gender neutral toilets don't need to be that much of a stretch. Pretty much every home has one, and most disabled loos are also usable by both genders.
Do you not understand or are you unwilling to understand? How on earth can you compare public toilets with cubicles inside a shared area to your private bathroom at home? It is beyond me how supposedly (lets's assume at least moderately) intelligent people think this comparison is a good point to make. I see it all the time with this issue. Same goes for disabled toilets or toilets in cafes - there is a single room. Totally different situation.
It is relevant to some degree. And it truly shows people's true colors. Either you care more for perceived feelings of a tiny minority and disregard all the evidence on the matter regarding the effects on girls and women, or you're not a virtue signalling waste of space. Girls require female only toilets. You can look up the statistics of sexual assault and violence on this. You can look at what charities do in Africa for example, but somehow in the West girls don't need it, because what, we are sooooo progressive. Listen to yourself.
Evidence of doctors being bullied into changing how they work? The NHS controls what treatments are available and which are not, individual doctors certainly have a say in this but they can't work outside their employers' remit.
Yes. Again, I find it absolutely astounding that you seem unaware of this. It's almost as if you decided to follow the cult and shut off contradictions and if they do arise straight out deny them. Just an article from a few days ago.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/training-guide-pushed-gps-to-endorse-gender-swaps-0v28x07v8
Many people have been saying it for some time, yet they are always dismissed as "bigots" and "terfs" and "transphobes". If you honestly think your side is playing fair, then sorry, but you are delusional. Trans activists bully and harass those that speak up. A lecturer had piss over her door at university because she spoke out. A meeting in Bristol was harassed by men in balaclavas trying to prevent women entering. If you were on the right side of history, you a) wouldn't need to repeat that so often and b) you wouldn't need to apply tactics of bullying, fear and intimidation.
So if somebody sues Nurofen tomorrow because it didn't cure their headache does that prove that paracetamol is harmful?
So instead of invesitgating the merits of this potentially crucial information regarding puberty blockers, you vaguely dismiss it. Not surprised at all re my earlier comment about avoiding contradictions and denial.
There's a lot of misrepresentation on both sides, really. But strangely enough it's only one side that continually argues that a bunch of armchair activists must know better than WHO, the NHS, and basically every medical professional in the field who's worth a damn.
Yes, like none of these insitutions failed children with anti-vaxx and repressed memory syndrome. And again the denial - there are plenty of professionals who speak up against this. You just choose not to listen to them, to label them bigots and transphobes.
That study does not support your conclusion. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html
I give you a link and you reply with an opinion piece written by an activist. You can simply look at the actual number of suicides. They do not go down post transition. They even go up in some cases.
All I promote is what's recommended by scientific bodies, what has been proven to work in prior cases and what is still the best solution to an otherwise awful problem to deal with. It may not be a perfect solution by any means but neither is chemotherapy, and there's no army of rabid twitter posters trying to ban that.
No, it is not. GIDS has on multiple issues actually contradicted what lobby groups like Mermaids push. You are part of the agenda that creates social contagion. You are promoting child abuse. You cannot run away from that.
A psychiatrist commenting on biology? Yeah, clearly that's something we should focus on instead of the many, many medical professionals who disagree with him.
So it is not a psychiatric issue, is it? And as I said, you shut your eyes and listen to those who say what you want to hear. You are deluded.
Original post by Dez
"Fully functioning" means different things to different people. Most people who undergo sex reassignment surgery feel its made a positive change to their lives.
This is just a BS no-true-scotsman argument. Medical science always has limitations, that doesn't mean we simply refuse to treat patients just because we can't 100% fix everything that might be wrong with them.
As I just said in my post (in the bit you carefully edited out), I agree that a simple solution isn't necessarily going to work for this particular issue. Since it's barely relevant to the thread topic though, I don't see the point in debating it further.
This is just a BS no-true-scotsman argument. Medical science always has limitations, that doesn't mean we simply refuse to treat patients just because we can't 100% fix everything that might be wrong with them.
As I just said in my post (in the bit you carefully edited out), I agree that a simple solution isn't necessarily going to work for this particular issue. Since it's barely relevant to the thread topic though, I don't see the point in debating it further.
You are lying again. Long term results of SRS are not positive. Short term they feel something has done, but in the end nothing changes. Suicide rates remain the same. Because you haven't actually cured anything. And you are just using world salad. No, fully-functioning doesn't mean different things to different people. It has a very specific, clear definition.
Then again, trans activists hate clear definitions, don't you.
ps woman - an adult human female.
You are right, it is not up for debate that she did something that is illegal in the UK.
Also, I do wonder why you seem to be picking this issue with so much. There are plenty of factually incorrect statements and yet you are only bothered by me omitting "...illegal (in the UK)". Anyway, stop responding to me, you are nothing but a troll who whines that this debate isn't going anywhere, and yet contributes nothing but spam.
Also, I do wonder why you seem to be picking this issue with so much. There are plenty of factually incorrect statements and yet you are only bothered by me omitting "...illegal (in the UK)". Anyway, stop responding to me, you are nothing but a troll who whines that this debate isn't going anywhere, and yet contributes nothing but spam.
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