Solicitor vs Investment Banking (Private Equity)
I am doing a History degree at Durham and was wondering about these two career options. Investment Banking (transition to PE after 2 years is the hope) is known to pay well, but the work life balance is terrible and it involves quite a bit of maths (though not so much as an analyst, more just grunt work). Law however, whilst paying less, does seem to have a better work life balance, and the idea of commercial law would mean I still get to work with big businesses, which would be my passion. I just had a couple questions
1) Do partners at top law firms earn more than partners/MDs at top bulge brackets? Or what’s the comparison?
2) How quickly can you make partner at a top law firm if you are good at your job and network efficiently?
3) Is commercial law a good area if you hope to break out into setting up your own business or advising start-ups?
Note: I understand it’s a career, you need to pick the one you like best. However, my passion is working with big businesses, and these both offer interesting perspectives into doing so
1) Do partners at top law firms earn more than partners/MDs at top bulge brackets? Or what’s the comparison?
2) How quickly can you make partner at a top law firm if you are good at your job and network efficiently?
3) Is commercial law a good area if you hope to break out into setting up your own business or advising start-ups?
Note: I understand it’s a career, you need to pick the one you like best. However, my passion is working with big businesses, and these both offer interesting perspectives into doing so
(edited 5 years ago)
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Why? I don't see how that answers any of my questions
Original post by That'sGreat
I am doing a History degree at Durham and was wondering about these two career options. Investment Banking (transition to PE after 2 years is the hope) is known to pay well, but the work life balance is terrible and it involves quite a bit of maths (though not so much as an analyst, more just grunt work). Law however, whilst paying less, does seem to have a better work life balance, and the idea of commercial law would mean I still get to work with big businesses, which would be my passion. I just had a couple questions
1) Do partners at top law firms earn more than partners/MDs at top bulge brackets? Or what’s the comparison?
2) How quickly can you make partner at a top law firm if you are good at your job and network efficiently?
3) Is commercial law a good area if you hope to break out into setting up your own business or advising start-ups?
Note: I understand it’s a career, you need to pick the one you like best. However, my passion is working with big businesses, and these both offer interesting perspectives into doing so
1) Do partners at top law firms earn more than partners/MDs at top bulge brackets? Or what’s the comparison?
2) How quickly can you make partner at a top law firm if you are good at your job and network efficiently?
3) Is commercial law a good area if you hope to break out into setting up your own business or advising start-ups?
Note: I understand it’s a career, you need to pick the one you like best. However, my passion is working with big businesses, and these both offer interesting perspectives into doing so
Why have you made the assumption that Commercial Law = fewer hours.
If you work at the top firms you can expect to work just as hard as in IB. Bankers aren’t up working when lawyers have gone off to sleep - how do you think the deals get seen through?
Original post by That'sGreat
I am doing a History degree at Durham and was wondering about these two career options. Investment Banking (transition to PE after 2 years is the hope) is known to pay well, but the work life balance is terrible and it involves quite a bit of maths (though not so much as an analyst, more just grunt work). Law however, whilst paying less, does seem to have a better work life balance, and the idea of commercial law would mean I still get to work with big businesses, which would be my passion. I just had a couple questions
1) Do partners at top law firms earn more than partners/MDs at top bulge brackets? Or what’s the comparison?
2) How quickly can you make partner at a top law firm if you are good at your job and network efficiently?
3) Is commercial law a good area if you hope to break out into setting up your own business or advising start-ups?
Note: I understand it’s a career, you need to pick the one you like best. However, my passion is working with big businesses, and these both offer interesting perspectives into doing
1) Do partners at top law firms earn more than partners/MDs at top bulge brackets? Or what’s the comparison?
2) How quickly can you make partner at a top law firm if you are good at your job and network efficiently?
3) Is commercial law a good area if you hope to break out into setting up your own business or advising start-ups?
Note: I understand it’s a career, you need to pick the one you like best. However, my passion is working with big businesses, and these both offer interesting perspectives into doing
Another assumption you have made is overgeneralising the range of firms that operate within the umbrella of ‘commercial law’.
You could be earning £67k NQ at Gowling WLG or £143k at Latham - huge difference.
Original post by lawboi98
Another assumption you have made is overgeneralising the range of firms that operate within the umbrella of ‘commercial law’.
You could be earning £67k NQ at Gowling WLG or £143k at Latham - huge difference.
You could be earning £67k NQ at Gowling WLG or £143k at Latham - huge difference.
I would have thought the term 'top law firms' was enough to tell you I was referring to top law firms.
Also, that's not an assumption
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by lawboi98
Why have you made the assumption that Commercial Law = fewer hours.
If you work at the top firms you can expect to work just as hard as in IB. Bankers aren’t up working when lawyers have gone off to sleep - how do you think the deals get seen through?
If you work at the top firms you can expect to work just as hard as in IB. Bankers aren’t up working when lawyers have gone off to sleep - how do you think the deals get seen through?
Most sources indicate average working hours are less than IB analysts so it's at worst an educated assumption.
Considering I have not begun a first year, I'm not surprised they sound 'first-year-esque'.
You're asking questions that won't lead to any answers. You may as well ask what I had for breakfast this morning.
Whether or not I know what a solicitor does is irrelevant to the questions. Why is it a concern of yours? Just answer the questions or don't, it really isn't hard.
You're asking questions that won't lead to any answers. You may as well ask what I had for breakfast this morning.
Whether or not I know what a solicitor does is irrelevant to the questions. Why is it a concern of yours? Just answer the questions or don't, it really isn't hard.
Having just searched it up, Bristols ranks 74th when ranking the UK law firms - that is not a top firm. If I got the 74th best grades in my school, I wouldn't exactly be vying for an Oxbridge PPE position now, would I?
The only reason i'm not getting anywhere with a 'money money money' mentality is because people aren't answering the questions, instead choosing to ask irrelevant questions. Though, considering there were 3 questions, and only one was about money, it's more of a 'money, progression, exit ops' mentality, which I'll let you use next time you're choosing between jobs (its pretty much the most standard way to decide)
And thanks for highlighting how not liking your job often doesn't usually lead to being promoted to top positions, but I don't particularly see how that's relevant? You don't know my work ethic or interests, so it's an irrelevant and pretty crap point to make.
The only reason i'm not getting anywhere with a 'money money money' mentality is because people aren't answering the questions, instead choosing to ask irrelevant questions. Though, considering there were 3 questions, and only one was about money, it's more of a 'money, progression, exit ops' mentality, which I'll let you use next time you're choosing between jobs (its pretty much the most standard way to decide)
And thanks for highlighting how not liking your job often doesn't usually lead to being promoted to top positions, but I don't particularly see how that's relevant? You don't know my work ethic or interests, so it's an irrelevant and pretty crap point to make.
I am in agreement with everything JohanGRK has said so far.
You’re jumping from one big goal to another, but you need to understand that firstly, you’re studying history - you’ll need to update your qualifications to be in line for training to qualify for legal/IB careers (this is a process in itself, especially when you consider potential rejections and how much time that takes to correct).
And secondly, you speak so casually about things like working with businesses and making partner. A person doesn’t automatically work with big clients and just become partner by turning up to work everyday - you need to have a passion for the job and be remarkably good at what you do. And average time to make partner can range from 5-20 years even! That’s because there’s so many people who will have been working at the firm longer than you, wanting the same thing.
I think you need to look at things from the perspective of ‘where can I see myself having a fulfilling and ever advancing career?’ Rather than ‘where can I make the most money?’ People who choose the later, ironically, don’t always end up making the most money.
Good luck with whatever you do tho.
You’re jumping from one big goal to another, but you need to understand that firstly, you’re studying history - you’ll need to update your qualifications to be in line for training to qualify for legal/IB careers (this is a process in itself, especially when you consider potential rejections and how much time that takes to correct).
And secondly, you speak so casually about things like working with businesses and making partner. A person doesn’t automatically work with big clients and just become partner by turning up to work everyday - you need to have a passion for the job and be remarkably good at what you do. And average time to make partner can range from 5-20 years even! That’s because there’s so many people who will have been working at the firm longer than you, wanting the same thing.
I think you need to look at things from the perspective of ‘where can I see myself having a fulfilling and ever advancing career?’ Rather than ‘where can I make the most money?’ People who choose the later, ironically, don’t always end up making the most money.
Good luck with whatever you do tho.
Quite ironic you calling me an imbecile when you're clearly struggling to comprehend 3 questions. A simple 'I don't know' (or even just not responding) would suffice.
Sorry to break it to you, but some people don't need to ask questions as basic as 'is commercial law hard to get into' and 'is commercial law a hard job'. I would have thought someone who is a lawyer (I expect you are considering your clear over-emotional attachment to your response) would be able to see that omitting information does not mean I don't know it. I don't see much point in my original post being a word-for-word synopsis of: what commercial law is, how hard is it to become a lawyer, what the burn out rate is (and whatever else you felt the need to tell me) from prospects.co.uk - If every post in this sub started like that it would be a pretty boring thread.
But I thank you for stopping there. Judging from your readiness to call me an imbecile for me refusing to give you every detail about my life, I fear my next response would push you into a mental breakdown.
Sorry to break it to you, but some people don't need to ask questions as basic as 'is commercial law hard to get into' and 'is commercial law a hard job'. I would have thought someone who is a lawyer (I expect you are considering your clear over-emotional attachment to your response) would be able to see that omitting information does not mean I don't know it. I don't see much point in my original post being a word-for-word synopsis of: what commercial law is, how hard is it to become a lawyer, what the burn out rate is (and whatever else you felt the need to tell me) from prospects.co.uk - If every post in this sub started like that it would be a pretty boring thread.
But I thank you for stopping there. Judging from your readiness to call me an imbecile for me refusing to give you every detail about my life, I fear my next response would push you into a mental breakdown.
Original post by Human_bean
I am in agreement with everything JohanGRK has said so far.
You’re jumping from one big goal to another, but you need to understand that firstly, you’re studying history - you’ll need to update your qualifications to be in line for training to qualify for legal/IB careers (this is a process in itself, especially when you consider potential rejections and how much time that takes to correct).
And secondly, you speak so casually about things like working with businesses and making partner. A person doesn’t automatically work with big clients and just become partner by turning up to work everyday - you need to have a passion for the job and be remarkably good at what you do. And average time to make partner can range from 5-20 years even! That’s because there’s so many people who will have been working at the firm longer than you, wanting the same thing.
I think you need to look at things from the perspective of ‘where can I see myself having a fulfilling and ever advancing career?’ Rather than ‘where can I make the most money?’ People who choose the later, ironically, don’t always end up making the most money.
Good luck with whatever you do tho.
You’re jumping from one big goal to another, but you need to understand that firstly, you’re studying history - you’ll need to update your qualifications to be in line for training to qualify for legal/IB careers (this is a process in itself, especially when you consider potential rejections and how much time that takes to correct).
And secondly, you speak so casually about things like working with businesses and making partner. A person doesn’t automatically work with big clients and just become partner by turning up to work everyday - you need to have a passion for the job and be remarkably good at what you do. And average time to make partner can range from 5-20 years even! That’s because there’s so many people who will have been working at the firm longer than you, wanting the same thing.
I think you need to look at things from the perspective of ‘where can I see myself having a fulfilling and ever advancing career?’ Rather than ‘where can I make the most money?’ People who choose the later, ironically, don’t always end up making the most money.
Good luck with whatever you do tho.
In case you decide to come back and answer one of my questions, I've bolded what I already know and hence don't need you to repeat (as your friend Johan has done repeatedly)
Original post by lawboi98
Why have you made the assumption that Commercial Law = fewer hours.
If you work at the top firms you can expect to work just as hard as in IB. Bankers aren’t up working when lawyers have gone off to sleep - how do you think the deals get seen through?
If you work at the top firms you can expect to work just as hard as in IB. Bankers aren’t up working when lawyers have gone off to sleep - how do you think the deals get seen through?
I reckon I work longer hours than the bankers I advise. The other thing is IB is very tough in the first few years but eases off a bit whereas being a solicitor seems to just get harder and harder
Original post by 999tigger
Ultimately you will regret and nothing will be taken in. Enjoy.
What?
Original post by That'sGreat
In case you decide to come back and answer one of my questions, I've bolded what I already know and hence don't need you to repeat (as your friend Johan has done repeatedly)
Thanks for that. But I guess the reason these points are being reiterated is because they’re very important to consider before you even begin to think about the answers to the questions you have now.
Original post by The West Wing
I reckon I work longer hours than the bankers I advise. The other thing is IB is very tough in the first few years but eases off a bit whereas being a solicitor seems to just get harder and harder
Literally the first person to provide any information of use. Thank you.
How long would you work a day then? 9am - 10pm?
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Human_bean
Thanks for that. But I guess the reason these points are being reiterated is because they’re very important to consider before you even begin to think about the answers to the questions you have now.
But that’s an assumption that I didn’t know it previously. And it wouldn’t stop them answering the questions.
Simmer down, hotshot. Why not do a couple of law and IB spring weeks and find out straight from partners and MDs, or better yet, find out if you like either industry to begin with?
I concur with everyone above that you're generalising too much - even in BBs, hours vary heavily between teams and divisions, I doubt GS TMT works the same hours as CS global markets. Same for law - at CC M&A there'll be weeks when you don't go home, and weeks with no deal flow and you go home at 6. Or you could go home at 7 quite consistently in tax.
Salaries for partners and MDs also vary heavily. Some firms, like Slaughters, pay all their equity partners the same depending on seniority (lockstep) but it also means that if you're not pulling your weight you'd be asked to leave; other firms are performance-based. Top US law firms tend to have higher profit per equity partner (PEP) than magic circles. Not sure about MD pay but it's hard to imagine it's not tied to performance. PE pay obviously depends - you'll get significantly more at Blackstone and Carlyle than at the average Canadian pension fund.
"Top law firm" isn't helpful - what metric are you going by? Global giants like Baker McKenzie or Piper are very "top" in terms of revenue, but don't exactly pay too well at trainee or NQ level. If you mean "top" as in do lots of FT-headline type work, then magic circles are consistently ranked better (and in more practice areas) than US firms in London but pay considerably less.
A bit of googling wouldn't hurt either, nothing anyone has said in this thread can't already be found online somewhere.
I concur with everyone above that you're generalising too much - even in BBs, hours vary heavily between teams and divisions, I doubt GS TMT works the same hours as CS global markets. Same for law - at CC M&A there'll be weeks when you don't go home, and weeks with no deal flow and you go home at 6. Or you could go home at 7 quite consistently in tax.
Salaries for partners and MDs also vary heavily. Some firms, like Slaughters, pay all their equity partners the same depending on seniority (lockstep) but it also means that if you're not pulling your weight you'd be asked to leave; other firms are performance-based. Top US law firms tend to have higher profit per equity partner (PEP) than magic circles. Not sure about MD pay but it's hard to imagine it's not tied to performance. PE pay obviously depends - you'll get significantly more at Blackstone and Carlyle than at the average Canadian pension fund.
"Top law firm" isn't helpful - what metric are you going by? Global giants like Baker McKenzie or Piper are very "top" in terms of revenue, but don't exactly pay too well at trainee or NQ level. If you mean "top" as in do lots of FT-headline type work, then magic circles are consistently ranked better (and in more practice areas) than US firms in London but pay considerably less.
A bit of googling wouldn't hurt either, nothing anyone has said in this thread can't already be found online somewhere.
Original post by Cowtheduck
Simmer down, hotshot. Why not do a couple of law and IB spring weeks and find out straight from partners and MDs, or better yet, find out if you like either industry to begin with?
I concur with everyone above that you're generalising too much - even in BBs, hours vary heavily between teams and divisions, I doubt GS TMT works the same hours as CS global markets. Same for law - at CC M&A there'll be weeks when you don't go home, and weeks with no deal flow and you go home at 6. Or you could go home at 7 quite consistently in tax.
Salaries for partners and MDs also vary heavily. Some firms, like Slaughters, pay all their equity partners the same depending on seniority (lockstep) but it also means that if you're not pulling your weight you'd be asked to leave; other firms are performance-based. Top US law firms tend to have higher profit per equity partner (PEP) than magic circles. Not sure about MD pay but it's hard to imagine it's not tied to performance. PE pay obviously depends - you'll get significantly more at Blackstone and Carlyle than at the average Canadian pension fund.
"Top law firm" isn't helpful - what metric are you going by? Global giants like Baker McKenzie or Piper are very "top" in terms of revenue, but don't exactly pay too well at trainee or NQ level. If you mean "top" as in do lots of FT-headline type work, then magic circles are consistently ranked better (and in more practice areas) than US firms in London but pay considerably less.
A bit of googling wouldn't hurt either, nothing anyone has said in this thread can't already be found online somewhere.
I concur with everyone above that you're generalising too much - even in BBs, hours vary heavily between teams and divisions, I doubt GS TMT works the same hours as CS global markets. Same for law - at CC M&A there'll be weeks when you don't go home, and weeks with no deal flow and you go home at 6. Or you could go home at 7 quite consistently in tax.
Salaries for partners and MDs also vary heavily. Some firms, like Slaughters, pay all their equity partners the same depending on seniority (lockstep) but it also means that if you're not pulling your weight you'd be asked to leave; other firms are performance-based. Top US law firms tend to have higher profit per equity partner (PEP) than magic circles. Not sure about MD pay but it's hard to imagine it's not tied to performance. PE pay obviously depends - you'll get significantly more at Blackstone and Carlyle than at the average Canadian pension fund.
"Top law firm" isn't helpful - what metric are you going by? Global giants like Baker McKenzie or Piper are very "top" in terms of revenue, but don't exactly pay too well at trainee or NQ level. If you mean "top" as in do lots of FT-headline type work, then magic circles are consistently ranked better (and in more practice areas) than US firms in London but pay considerably less.
A bit of googling wouldn't hurt either, nothing anyone has said in this thread can't already be found online somewhere.
This is spot on. OP needs to actually speak to someone working at a firm instead of fawning at the firms’ career websites. Apply for Spring Weeks (many as your success ratio won’t be great with your apparent naivety), Go to open days and insight presentations - most important I’ve found is to network with trainees/analysts. Then you can be at least somewhat informed and might have a shot at a summer IBD role or Law Vac Scheme.
(edited 5 years ago)
While people are correct to point out that "it depends", there is some useful information that can be given.
As you are referring to "top law firms", we should probably focus on looking at the Magic Circle firms which are generally seen as the most prestigious corporate/commercial type law firms. It is true that some of the American firms pay more, but the top-paying American firms are a very small slice of the market, and there are disadvantages with working for them (e.g. the experience and training is typically not as good early in one's career and career advancement opportunities can be very dependent on approval from remote US offices).
You can find pay information on https://www.rollonfriday.com/inside-info.
The average equity partner at somewhere like Freshfields or Allen & Overy gets £1.5 million a year.
People are typically getting made up to partner these days at those sorts of firms something like 10-14 PQE, so if you did want to stay in law you might make it to partner perhaps 12-16 years after you start as a trainee solicitor. People often spend perhaps 3 years as a salaried partner before making it on to equity.
I am sure you will be able to google information on how much people get paid in investment banking and private equity separately. I imagine that remuneration in those sectors will vary a bit more from year-to-year and depending on individual performance than in law. The amounts partners get paid are linked to individual performance to an extent, but still often linked to lockstep (particularly in the Magic Circle firms).
Of course you could also choose to work for another firm which pays a bit less, but offers you work you are more interested in and a better work life balance. That can be a very sensible personal choice.
As you are referring to "top law firms", we should probably focus on looking at the Magic Circle firms which are generally seen as the most prestigious corporate/commercial type law firms. It is true that some of the American firms pay more, but the top-paying American firms are a very small slice of the market, and there are disadvantages with working for them (e.g. the experience and training is typically not as good early in one's career and career advancement opportunities can be very dependent on approval from remote US offices).
You can find pay information on https://www.rollonfriday.com/inside-info.
The average equity partner at somewhere like Freshfields or Allen & Overy gets £1.5 million a year.
People are typically getting made up to partner these days at those sorts of firms something like 10-14 PQE, so if you did want to stay in law you might make it to partner perhaps 12-16 years after you start as a trainee solicitor. People often spend perhaps 3 years as a salaried partner before making it on to equity.
I am sure you will be able to google information on how much people get paid in investment banking and private equity separately. I imagine that remuneration in those sectors will vary a bit more from year-to-year and depending on individual performance than in law. The amounts partners get paid are linked to individual performance to an extent, but still often linked to lockstep (particularly in the Magic Circle firms).
Of course you could also choose to work for another firm which pays a bit less, but offers you work you are more interested in and a better work life balance. That can be a very sensible personal choice.
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