Why leave with a no deal?

Nobody sees the ND scenario as ideal but to leave without a deal seems to be the only way Brexit can be meaningfully implemented, in face of all the collusion committed to overturning it. You can see that everybody claiming it would be the end of the world is a Remainer and that YC's partners in the House will keep pushing forever for a deal where the UK don't really leave. Together with the EU, they are the ones making ND a requirement for Brexit to be implemented. A workable deal would immediately emerge from the Continent, if the UK just gave them the Churchill sign.

Reply 2

I've seen some really, really stupid arguments in favour of no deal. A lot of people don't really understand what it even implies, yet they support it blindly because their idol Farage told them it would be a good idea. Any justification for no deal from these types is essentially just circular reasoning/confirmation bias.

Even the more remotely sane arguments for no deal tends to be emotive and intangible rubbish, e.g. it'll give us sovereignty/independence/whatever, it'll show up those fat cats in Brussels, or it'll give us an ace in the hole in our negotiations (because clearly that's been going swimmingly so far right?).

No deal supporters tend to brush over more tangible issues like border control, crime reduction, imports/exports and so on. Some also seem to be mistakenly under the impression that leaving without a deal would absolve us of the "divorce bill" money owed to the EU. Or that we can automatically fall back onto WTO goods trading terms and everything will transition smoothly (because it's not like we're a service economy or anything).

Unsurprisingly, there's a lot of BS floating about in the Brexit toilet at the moment.

Reply 3

Original post by Dez

I've seen some really, really stupid arguments in favour of no deal.

Can we have a specific example of one, please?

Reply 4

Original post by z-hog

Can we have a specific example of one, please?

A few unpleasant minutes on Twitter brings up several examples.

The empire will prevail, apparently: https://twitter.com/MarkFrancois12/status/1113902578918658053

And this one is just pure uninformed gold: https://twitter.com/UMilatz/status/1115480667968741381

I was going to include an example from the Brexit Party twitter account (straight from the horse's arse, as it were) but they don't seem to be bothering with any arguments for their position at all, simply asserting that no deal Brexit is the way forward with no justification or evidence whatsoever. What a beacon for democracy they are.

Reply 5

the bear

The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

Reply 6

random_matt

Parliament won't allow it, irrelevant question.

Reply 7

username4540078

They have a dogmatic desire to leave the EU regardless of the consequences.

It's telling that the most vocal advocates of no deal are shielded from any economic fall out. It's the people on low incomes that will suffer.

Reply 8

It's another big con perpetrated on the public, the apocalyptic No Deal scenario. All it means is that trading would be subjected to WTO rules, absolutely nothing else. For that reason, we don't hear anybody else other than Remainers moan about it. Nobody outside that sphere is talking about No Deal as the end of the world. It's just that, No Deal = WTO trading. There is no reason whatsoever for the UK and the EU not to be able to carry on trading in exactly the same terms as now if both sides have the good will required, this is all a scam designed to keep the UK tied to the EU.

Reply 9

Original post by Trotsky's Iceaxe

They have a dogmatic desire to leave the EU regardless of the consequences.

Yeah, Trotsky and Democracy in the same sentence would be something...

It's telling that the most vocal advocates of no deal are shielded from any economic fall out. It's the people on low incomes that will suffer.

Any chance of a brief outline on that one?

Reply 10

Original post by Dez

Oh, it's all on that Twittersphere. Sorry for not looking at the links.

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 11

Original post by z-hog

Oh, it's all on that Twittersphere. Sorry for not looking at the links.

You asked me for examples of dumb arguments. What were you expecting me to link to? :colonhash:

Reply 12

username4540078

Original post by z-hog

Yeah, Trotsky and Democracy in the same sentence would be something...

Any chance of a brief outline on that one?

You want me to explain something very simple to you? Maybe try thinking for yourself rather than always asking someone to hold your hand.

Reply 13

Original post by Trotsky's Iceaxe

You want me to explain something very simple to you? Maybe try thinking for yourself rather than always asking someone to hold your hand.

I'll explain something to you, I'm on a low income and if I lost my job and couldn't get work I would probably lose my house too, I know many others in the same situation and all but 1 of those people i know would prefer a no deal to remaining in the EU.
Please now explain to me how I am sheltered from a negative outcome.
As has been explained before I don't feel that it would be an issue for very long at all, the EU already have plans in place that mean not much would change for a year after a no deal situation anyway, and in that time their Governments would be under all sorts of pressure to negotiate a deal with us.
The end outcome of a no deal brexit would be a better deal for us.

Reply 14

username1799249

Original post by ColinDent

So when you and those you know have all lost your jobs and houses and are sleeping on the street, how is that possibly a good thing?

Idiotic rhetoric like that terrifies me because I really do not want to lose my job or my house. You seem to want to bring the country to its knees on a point of principal. Why?

Are you offering to explain to my kids why their dad can longer put a roof over their head?

(edited 5 years ago)

Reply 15

Original post by ByEeek

It's not a point of principal, it's a difference of opinion.
I like so many others do not see this apocalyptic no deal brexit scenario that you do, it's really as simple as that.
Now prove to me with facts, not opinions, that it will be.

Reply 16

Original post by ColinDent

I like so many others do not see this apocalyptic no deal brexit scenario that you do, it's really as simple as that.

What scenario do you see then, sunshine and daisies? Milk and honey? How is your "it'll all work out" assumption a more valid one than say, for example the BoE's prediction that it'd shrink our GDP by over £50 billion?

Reply 17

Original post by Dez

I see a well worked out trade deal that works for both the EU and the UK, one which also allows us to do deals with whomever else we wish, and on whatever terms we prefer.
Also is that the guess that in 11 years our GDP will be £50b less then they are currently guessing ( not shrinking by the way), economic forecasts go up and down all the time so no I'm not too concerned by that.
So please provide unequivocal proof of your apocalyptic future, again no opinions please.

Reply 18

Original post by ColinDent

I see a well worked out trade deal that works for both the EU and the UK

I don't think you quite understand the concept behind "no deal". The crux of it, I think you'll find, is that we leave the EU without any trade deals worked out.

Original post by ColinDent

one which also allows us to do deals with whomever else we wish, and on whatever terms we prefer.

I'd have thought it'd be braindead obvious that even without the EU we can't do deals with "whomever we wish" or "on whatever terms we prefer". The point of any deal is that you need to meet a compromise. It's not like countries are queueing up to sign trade agreements with us, unlike the blithe assertions of the leave camp I may note.

Original post by ColinDent

Also is that the guess that in 11 years our GDP will be £50b less then they are currently guessing ( not shrinking by the way), economic forecasts go up and down all the time so no I'm not too concerned by that.

Ah okay then. So I guess we can safely ignore all the economic forecasts and business experts on this subject because you have a good feeling that it'll all be fine?

Original post by ColinDent

So please provide unequivocal proof of your apocalyptic future, again no opinions please.

I'm not the one proposing a massive change to the UK's relationship with the rest of the world. Burden of proof is on Brexiteers to demonstrate that this is a good idea, and so far I've seen nothing to suggest it'll actually improve things, even the most wildly optimistic forecasts put us at about the same level we are now.

Reply 19