Moving from a silver circle to a US firm?

No worries, glad its helpful.

I would say there is not much difference in terms of reputation, opportunities, training, type of clients etc. between the top SC firms like HSF and Ashurst and the MC.

Firms like MacFarlanes and Travers Smith are also great, and also considered "top" firms, but don't have anything like the network of international offices that firms like CC/A&O/Links/HSF have, so training there can be a slightly different proposition, particularly if you would like to have the opportunity to spend some time working overseas. Slaughters is the "odd one out" in the Magic Circle as they do not have a big network of international offices.

How would you rate firms like Clyde & Co. or CMS in terms of level of training and experience gained? How hard do they work you? Are their exit opportunities very good?

There is very little difference between the large international Magic Circle firms and HSF/Ashurst. They both have a good argument to be called Magic Circle firms. HSF calls itself a Magic Circle firm.

You guys both seem to know your stuff so I had a few random queries you might be able to share some insight into if you don't mind.

Firstly, how common is it to move from SC to MC post-NQ? (I get your point and agree that the boundaries between MC/SC firms are ambiguous at best, but I was wondering if the reason for SC NQs/PQs being able to move to US firms is the US firms' extremely high turnover of associates - given the MC firms have a much lower turnover does this effect how feasible/common it is for SC NQs/PQs to move to MC firms?)

Secondly, do you know anything about how common/possible it is to at least semi-permanently move to another jurisdiction (either within the same firm or otherwise)?

Thanks

It's not that hard to move SC (especially HSF or Ashurst type) to MC at 1-3 PQE provided you can pass an interview, the drop out rate is immense that that level making it a lot less competitive than getting a TC or an NQ place. The MC has an extremely high turnover, no idea where you got a contrary idea from.

Not that hard to move to another jurisdiction either. Middle East has a constant churn, as do offshore firms and Hong Kong/Singapore. Some practice areas will facilitate this more than others, e.g. funds, general corporate, banking

I assumed the MC has a lower turnover rate than US firms (as opposed to just a low turnover rate), hence I was wondering if they would be as open to SCs transferring to them as US firms (apparently) are. Given the US NQ intakes will be around 3-20 compared to 40-80 for MC firms the turnover % at US firms can obviously be much higher (that was my logic at least).

Good to know about the other jurisdictions - I assume you mean within the same firm. Would those be just short-term moves or more permanent moves if that is what someone wants?

NB. I definitely wouldn't classify HL as below Ashurst/NRF - what's the basis for that? My perception was HSF and HL as the top of the 'SC' hierarchy (to the extent a hierarchy can be said to exist and generalised in such a way).

If you are 1-3 PQE and trained at a silver circle firm and were kept on, and have a pulse you can probably get into a magic circle firm if that's what you truly want. In reality I don't think many people try and make that move (as the on the ground experience isn't going to be that difference and the pay is only a tiny amount higher)

It's not that hard to move within the same firm if you insist on it and they want to keep you, either short term or permanently. If you want to move laterally you'll have to demonstrate a commitment to the jurisdiction you are moving to.

HL is not well respected for corporate or finance work. I've worked at two magic circle firms across different practice areas and hardly come across them - much less than the four I listed in the tier above.

I also see the appeal of staying at a SC firm with a good balance between salary-work life, so I can understand that.

What about those trainees at SC firms (such as HSF/HL/NRF/etc) who don't get retained PQ - how are their prospects and do they tend to move to other SC firms or can they also move to MC/US firms?

I take your point on corporate and finance but HL are very strong on antitrust, public law, IP and litigation - so I still think they'd be tier 2 on your hierarchy (not that it matters).

Unlikely to go from SC to MC at NQ level if you weren't kept on. Don't think I've ever seen that happen. MC don't tend to recruit much laterally for NQs unless something has gone wrong internally but do recruit laterally from 1 PQE onwards. You'd probably have a chance at the US firms that don't have trainees of their own or going down a tier but then you'd compete with that firm's own trainees (who unless they're truly **** will have priority over laterals)

So what do all the non-retained SC trainees do (given retention rates of 70-90% that's not a unsubstantial number of trainees)?

My magic circle intake had quite a low retention (below 80%) and the people that weren't kept on went to US firms, lower tier firms, in house, to law firms from their home countries or left law completely (i.e. the full spectrum of available options).

Cheers, be interesting to see how/if that varies for SC trainees (I'd guess it's pretty similar, but with fewer moving up to US/MC firms and more moving across the SC and 'down').

Firstly, how common is it to move from SC to MC post-NQ? (I get your point and agree that the boundaries between MC/SC firms are ambiguous at best, but I was wondering if the reason for SC NQs/PQs being able to move to US firms is the US firms' extremely high turnover of associates - given the MC firms have a much lower turnover does this translate into SC NQs/PQs being less likely/able to move to MC firms?)

Secondly, do you know anything about how common/possible it is to at least semi-permanently move to another jurisdiction (either within the same firm or otherwise)?

Thanks