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Firstly, fair play on separating this discussion from your other thread - although they're related, they're really dealing with two separate issues.
I'm not from Northern Ireland. At best, I've visited a few times and increasingly what I've seen is a modern, forward-looking country that's leaving some of the worst bits of the past behind. I am British and I have done my bit in campaigning for my part of the country, Scotland, continuing to be part of the United Kingdom.
From our side of the Irish Sea (or, rather, the North Channel), I do think that the UK would be lessened without Northern Ireland. Decades of conflict cast a long and dark shadow, but there is a lot that even that can't obscure. Northern Ireland is a pretty special place with great potential.
Many people in England, Scotland and Wales will probably still associate NI with what it has shown us about division - but it's also taught us quite a bit about how two groups of people with generations of hatred and distrust can park what divides them and work together for a shared future. I'd prefer to focus on the latter, for that is the future and that is the way to address many of the problems that the country still has.
I do find Brexit depressing as a Remain voter, but I don't think there's any unpleasantness within it that should undermine the closer, more vital bonds that we all have within the UK. Across the world, borders are drawn by historical accident, but it is what we have built, together, as part of a common democratic project that makes our countries and our nationalities meaningful.
I'm not from Northern Ireland. At best, I've visited a few times and increasingly what I've seen is a modern, forward-looking country that's leaving some of the worst bits of the past behind. I am British and I have done my bit in campaigning for my part of the country, Scotland, continuing to be part of the United Kingdom.
From our side of the Irish Sea (or, rather, the North Channel), I do think that the UK would be lessened without Northern Ireland. Decades of conflict cast a long and dark shadow, but there is a lot that even that can't obscure. Northern Ireland is a pretty special place with great potential.
Many people in England, Scotland and Wales will probably still associate NI with what it has shown us about division - but it's also taught us quite a bit about how two groups of people with generations of hatred and distrust can park what divides them and work together for a shared future. I'd prefer to focus on the latter, for that is the future and that is the way to address many of the problems that the country still has.
I do find Brexit depressing as a Remain voter, but I don't think there's any unpleasantness within it that should undermine the closer, more vital bonds that we all have within the UK. Across the world, borders are drawn by historical accident, but it is what we have built, together, as part of a common democratic project that makes our countries and our nationalities meaningful.
Original post by gsmyth
A of distress is being caused here in NI over Brexit and how it is going to affect our key economic sectors. So is it time for a United Ireland?
Please drop your opinions down below. Thanks!
Please drop your opinions down below. Thanks!
There's a strong case for it and it is now beginning to be overdue.
The case is non-sectarian and is separate from the traditional IRA/Sinn Fein demands and the case for it does not ignore the Protestant communities in both Ireland and Northern Ireland.
It's an economic case - it's unanswerable that they would be better off being together - and one based on human realities - it is one island and they have far more in common than things that separate them.
We live in the 21st century and age old disputes about religion and nationality should not be permitted to obscure what is clearly a good thing for all concerned.
Finally, it is time for the British and particularly the English establishment and upper classes to stop playing divide and rule games about the island of Ireland once and for all and instead to help them unite.
The EU is an issue, but another point is that Ireland (and a United Ireland) would be best served economically by tying in closely with the UK economy, but if that is not available, Northern Ireland would do much better in the EU as one country with Ireland than by shackling itself to a declining United Kingdom because a small tribe of archaic and extremely right wing DUP politicians want them to in order to continue to feather their own nests.
Here's a much needed God Save the Queen:
Don't think there will be majority support for a United Ireland for the foreseeable future for good reason.
Don't think there will be majority support for a United Ireland for the foreseeable future for good reason.
Original post by BlueIndigoViolet
Here's a much needed God Save the Queen:
Don't think there will be majority support for a United Ireland for the foreseeable future for good reason.
Don't think there will be majority support for a United Ireland for the foreseeable future for good reason.
Not for good reasons. For out of date reasoning and to serve special interests rather than the interests of the majority.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Not for good reasons. For out of date reasoning and to serve special interests rather than the interests of the majority.
which does not speak for the majority of NI who wish to remain in the union, there needs to be less of an "us" and "them" mentality, and most people simply want to live their lives, as do not see any obstacles or problems with remaining in the UK, the true out of date reasoning, digging up religious tensions etc. and are comfortable with having both a British and Irish identity...
(we are crossing into fundemental differences in opinion here, though which I can respect)
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by Fullofsurprises
It's an economic case - it's unanswerable that they would be better off being together - and one based on human realities - it is one island and they have far more in common than things that separate them.
We live in the 21st century and age old disputes about religion and nationality should not be permitted to obscure what is clearly a good thing for all concerned.
We live in the 21st century and age old disputes about religion and nationality should not be permitted to obscure what is clearly a good thing for all concerned.
It is also the 21st century and the economic argument of "there's a salty sea-channel there" doesn't really hold water anymore. In today's economy, most trade is in the service sector. It is not bounded by the sea. In Northern Ireland's case particularly, this can be quite easily seen by the relative amount of trade it does with Great Britain and the Republic.
The economic argument only really works if you're talking about a multi-decade restructuring of Northern Ireland's economy to align with the Republic. And trading a common domestic market of 66 million for one of five million only really works if you factor in the EU. Which is all well and good, except for the clearly extant trade barriers that exist between member-states like Britain and Ireland and the EU. In short, it's difficult to conclude otherwise than that the UK union has greater economic value to Northern Ireland than a looser union with the European Union complemented with a tighter union with the Irish Republic.
From an economic standpoint, Irish unification would be a lot of short-to-medium term pain for a long-term loss.
if you were to design our nation logically and from scratch, I would argue that all of Ireland and Norther Ireland should be part of the UK, I don't see any logical reason for them not to be... except history.
Obviously history makes that impossible to happen in any of our lifetimes, bar some major catastrophy or the line, and to be honest if Ireland isn't part of the UK, then it does seem to make sense that NI would unite, given their geography/cultural similarity, and especially now with brexit, and NI mostly wanting to remain in the EU.
Its a shame we all can't be one big nation, but I don't lay any of the blame on Ireland for that at all. Its entirely the fault of the English goverments and kings of old, and their treatment/actions towards ireland, that have put us in this possition, where another people who we should by all logical standards be one with, have ended up bitterly at war at times, and now permanently separated.
Obviously history makes that impossible to happen in any of our lifetimes, bar some major catastrophy or the line, and to be honest if Ireland isn't part of the UK, then it does seem to make sense that NI would unite, given their geography/cultural similarity, and especially now with brexit, and NI mostly wanting to remain in the EU.
Its a shame we all can't be one big nation, but I don't lay any of the blame on Ireland for that at all. Its entirely the fault of the English goverments and kings of old, and their treatment/actions towards ireland, that have put us in this possition, where another people who we should by all logical standards be one with, have ended up bitterly at war at times, and now permanently separated.
Original post by fallen_acorns
if you were to design our nation logically and from scratch, I would argue that all of Ireland and Norther Ireland should be part of the UK, I don't see any logical reason for them not to be... except history.
Obviously history makes that impossible to happen in any of our lifetimes, bar some major catastrophy or the line, and to be honest if Ireland isn't part of the UK, then it does seem to make sense that NI would unite, given their geography/cultural similarity, and especially now with brexit, and NI mostly wanting to remain in the EU.
Its a shame we all can't be one big nation, but I don't lay any of the blame on Ireland for that at all. Its entirely the fault of the English goverments and kings of old, and their treatment/actions towards ireland, that have put us in this possition, where another people who we should by all logical standards be one with, have ended up bitterly at war at times, and now permanently separated.
Obviously history makes that impossible to happen in any of our lifetimes, bar some major catastrophy or the line, and to be honest if Ireland isn't part of the UK, then it does seem to make sense that NI would unite, given their geography/cultural similarity, and especially now with brexit, and NI mostly wanting to remain in the EU.
Its a shame we all can't be one big nation, but I don't lay any of the blame on Ireland for that at all. Its entirely the fault of the English goverments and kings of old, and their treatment/actions towards ireland, that have put us in this possition, where another people who we should by all logical standards be one with, have ended up bitterly at war at times, and now permanently separated.
Yes, essentially we are one people, but we have to also accept that in history, the English aristocracy frequently organised the oppression of people in Ireland for their own commercial gain and to dominate, as they did in Wales and Scotland. That has left a lasting legacy of bitterness, which can and should be overcome.
I favour a Federation of These Islands which would share sovereignty and have a Federal President. We would need to get rid of our horribly antiquated monarchy, which would also help us modernise in other ways.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Yes, essentially we are one people, but we have to also accept that in history, the English aristocracy frequently organised the oppression of people in Ireland for their own commercial gain and to dominate, as they did in Wales and Scotland. That has left a lasting legacy of bitterness, which can and should be overcome.
I favour a Federation of These Islands which would share sovereignty and have a Federal President. We would need to get rid of our horribly antiquated monarchy, which would also help us modernise in other ways.
I favour a Federation of These Islands which would share sovereignty and have a Federal President. We would need to get rid of our horribly antiquated monarchy, which would also help us modernise in other ways.
I agree with all of that except the royal bit - I still like them, as long as they have next to no real power.
Original post by fallen_acorns
I agree with all of that except the royal bit - I still like them, as long as they have next to no real power.
The thing is, it's constantly said that they have no power, but they really do, not least over the national culture and the sense that the aristocracy are still the people we should defer to. They are also in charge ultimately of the armed forces, the courts and the police and everyone who understands the history of England well knows that they wouldn't hesitate to use that power if a seriously left wing threat to the established order looked like gaining power. The past Labour governments were only permitted because apart from some tinkerings, they left the landowners and the aristocrats with their powers and lands.
Original post by L i b
It is also the 21st century and the economic argument of "there's a salty sea-channel there" doesn't really hold water anymore. In today's economy, most trade is in the service sector. It is not bounded by the sea. In Northern Ireland's case particularly, this can be quite easily seen by the relative amount of trade it does with Great Britain and the Republic.
The economic argument only really works if you're talking about a multi-decade restructuring of Northern Ireland's economy to align with the Republic. And trading a common domestic market of 66 million for one of five million only really works if you factor in the EU. Which is all well and good, except for the clearly extant trade barriers that exist between member-states like Britain and Ireland and the EU. In short, it's difficult to conclude otherwise than that the UK union has greater economic value to Northern Ireland than a looser union with the European Union complemented with a tighter union with the Irish Republic.
From an economic standpoint, Irish unification would be a lot of short-to-medium term pain for a long-term loss.
The economic argument only really works if you're talking about a multi-decade restructuring of Northern Ireland's economy to align with the Republic. And trading a common domestic market of 66 million for one of five million only really works if you factor in the EU. Which is all well and good, except for the clearly extant trade barriers that exist between member-states like Britain and Ireland and the EU. In short, it's difficult to conclude otherwise than that the UK union has greater economic value to Northern Ireland than a looser union with the European Union complemented with a tighter union with the Irish Republic.
From an economic standpoint, Irish unification would be a lot of short-to-medium term pain for a long-term loss.
My theory is there should be a completely open market across these islands, which would clearly be better served if we stayed in the EU - Brexit is against the interests of everyone on the island of Ireland, not least Northern Irish working class protestants misled by the DUP.
Failing that, NI would be better off with the South in the EU if the UK persists with self-harm.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The thing is, it's constantly said that they have no power, but they really do, not least over the national culture and the sense that the aristocracy are still the people we should defer to. They are also in charge ultimately of the armed forces, the courts and the police and everyone who understands the history of England well knows that they wouldn't hesitate to use that power if a seriously left wing threat to the established order looked like gaining power. The past Labour governments were only permitted because apart from some tinkerings, they left the landowners and the aristocrats with their powers and lands.
I'm not sure I agree with the second part. I honestly think they are clever enough that if a propper republicanist party did get into power and had public support to remove them - I think they would go quietly, as long as they were allowed to keep their land/money. I think they have always looked around at the vanished royal families in the rest of the world, and how the only royality that surived did so at the expense of almost all of their power, and I think they would know that if it came to it again, the only way to survive would be to give up even more of it.
Your certainly right though that their power is understated, they do still have a big cultural impact yes - and I am willing to bet that their soft-pull during their regular meetings with the PM/world leaders is pretty strong.
You are talking a little to much about the past and not the future, the people of NI are very much done with the past besides some legacy issues. Many people just want to get on with their lives as someone said. But, we have tremendous strain on our education and health/social services. I would like to see someone come from the Republic give an opinion and also someone else from Northern Ireland.
Hopefully, and Scotland and Wales can bugger off too.
Original post by BlueIndigoViolet
Here's a much needed God Save the Queen:
Don't think there will be majority support for a United Ireland for the foreseeable future for good reason.
Don't think there will be majority support for a United Ireland for the foreseeable future for good reason.
Honestly, what was the point in this input? I may as well just post the Soldiers Song here...
Original post by random_matt
Hopefully, and Scotland and Wales can bugger off too.
Really? Why's that?
Original post by gsmyth
Really? Why's that?
The concept, the ideology of the United Kingdom does not work, it only creates more problems than it solves. It's archaic, outdated and serves no purpose. The whole brexit thing is a good example, the Scots, Welsh, Irish and English are all biased and will only serve themselves first. Scotland is the best example of this, Scotland this and Scotland that, it is time we all went our separate ways.
NI is a drain on UK resources and should be allowed to rejoin the Republic of Ireland where they belong. I don’t know why we’re making such a fuss to keep them
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