China slaps US goods with new tariffs

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Seeing as this money universally comes from out of their pocket, not China’s, they’re hardly benefiting from this?

They benefit from China being eventually forced to give concessions that’s what trade wars are about.

If they didn’t serve a purpose politicians wouldn’t use political capital to do it.

Reply 21

Napp

Original post by paul514

They benefit from China being eventually forced to give concessions that’s what trade wars are about.

If they didn’t serve a purpose politicians wouldn’t use political capital to do it.

It’s dubious of China will give any meaningful concessions, this trade war is more of a thorn in the side than a tanto to the gut so far.
There’s a fair few analysts of the opinion that trumps ham fisted approach to this will simply push China to double down though. After all, showing weakness to bullying is likely more dangerous to regime survival than some economic discontent that will pass any way.

A dubious argument, politicians logic is never something you should use to explain anything. Never mind the fact this is already rather unpopular with a fair number of politicians there; especially in the states getting stung by Chinese tariffs like the mid west.

Reply 22

username1148663

Original post by Napp

The Americans can cause huge damage to the Chinese economy if it likes by placing ever higher tariffs or even import bans this can continue escalating until they get the response they want.

They are the worlds largest economy if the Chinese want to feel the pain then that is up to them.

Your way forward is to let them get away with what they like and do sod all.

Reply 23

El Salvador

Original post by Napp

Enough to dislike the party I’m curious why you hate the country writ large though

The party is largely the country...If China dominates, it's the party's will that will get executed, not its people's democratic will.

And it's people aren't that much better. Defecating on the streets in Hong Kong, stealing resources by having an anchor baby who actually lives on the other side of the border, making the city more populated by having all their family reunion in Hong Kong, going on banned sites and whatnot to spread their propaganda, etc. There were many who went to Hong Kong, complained about things, and said things like "without us buying things (in some cases, merely a bottle of soy sauce) Hong Kong would've died long ago". One even said "without us taking [the fully government funded school places], who's going to take them". Many actually feel like their country's Rose in power actually makes them the boss and behave as one.

Also, without its huge population, China would have been much much less powerful than it is today.

Reply 24

Napp

Original post by The Champion.m4a

The party is largely the country...If China dominates, it's the party's will that will get executed, not its people's democratic will.

Debatable, the party remains happily tolerated so long as it keeps up its end of the agreement.

And it's people aren't that much better. Defecating on the streets in Hong Kong, stealing resources by having an anchor baby who actually lives on the other side of the border, making the city more populated by having all their family reunion in Hong Kong, going on banned sites and whatnot to spread their propaganda, etc. There were many who went to Hong Kong, complained about things, and said things like "without us buying things (in some cases, merely a bottle of soy sauce) Hong Kong would've died long ago". One even said "without us taking [the fully government funded school places], who's going to take them". Many actually feel like their country's Rose in power actually makes them the boss and behave as one.

Vaguely understandable although i still find you generalizing over a billion people by a couple of them to be rather...curious. With that being said the Chinese tourist is rather infamous for such antics/

Also, without its huge population, China would have been much much less powerful than it is today.

True, but the same goes for most countries who attained power. At any rate now, whilst its population is evidently a huge boon, the country is powerful in its own right be it in technological terms, resources etc.

Reply 25

El Salvador

Original post by Napp

Debatable, the party remains happily tolerated so long as it keeps up its end of the agreement.

Vaguely understandable although i still find you generalizing over a billion people by a couple of them to be rather...curious. With that being said the Chinese tourist is rather infamous for such antics/

True, but the same goes for most countries who attained power. At any rate now, whilst its population is evidently a huge boon, the country is powerful in its own right be it in technological terms, resources etc.

The party has survived the great leap forward and the cultural revolution, I really don't think their so-called keeping their end of the deal is that big of a factor.

But in general I feel very little regarding the population one way or another, as I only feel strongly about the regime. If the suffering of the general public is what is needed to have the regime or even just the current sovereign overthrown, I have no issue with that.

Reply 26

Napp

Original post by The Champion.m4a

Most China experts would disagree with you on that one.
Fair play on the second comment though.

Reply 27

Fullofsurprises

The US will 'win', but at what price? The truth is, the US needs China as much as China needs the US. They are effectively one gigantic production and consumer unit now - Chimerica.

Protectionism in history has often ended up in wars, or the decline of the Protectionist.

Reply 28

Napp

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I wouldnt disagree with you per-se but, in ones opinion, i'd say the US likely needs China more in that they are the largest buyer of their debt. true, in a trade war no one can really win but if China were to take the nuclear option (not nuclear bombs that is) in this dispute and stop buying treasury notes and dump what they held (whilst being a Pyrrhic victory for them) it would decimate the US economy... and most others for that matter.

Love the portmanteau though!

Reply 29

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Napp

It's certainly true that China has regularly flouted both the principles and the rules of the WTO in the way it conducts trade, not to mention simply stealing other people's ideas and products, although to be fair the latter has always been the bedrock of America's most effective industry, Silicon Valley, so there are definitely some pots and kettles in the US attitude on that. On the dollar issue, China has been trying for a while to get the Yuan, or some combination of the Yuan plus other currencies, into global use as a dollar alternative (they probably won't win this battle unless oil comes out of the dollar, which hasn't happened so far - and possibly cocaine!) and there can be no doubt that the US feels deeply threatened by such moves. The wildly escalated debts of the US crucially depend on their global currency of choice status. America will decline sharply and noticeably if it stops being so. They will do anything to prevent that.

China should really stop trying to become a superpower and instead focus on things it does well and seek harmonious living with the US and other countries - but it's difficult to trust or give credit to a government that refuses to be accountable, that seeks new dictatorial powers for its current leader, that imprisons millions for being Muslim or protesting, that harvests their organs to run an international organ transplant business - I could go on, but they are a pretty loathsome lot. It isn't fair to leave their people under such a regime, which also happens to be one of the most corrupt and money-seeking on earth. Trump is not really addressing any of these issues head-on. He prefers to seek his own re-election.

Reply 30

Suud500

Original post by Napp

Whilst one can sympathize with the US, to a point, in this situation Trumps handling of it has been hilariously moronic - although my dropping portfolio value simply calls him a ****. He also seems to be blissfully unaware that the US has for centuries been stealing other countries trade secrets, specifically it looted Britains like it was nobodies business and it continues to conduct industrial espionage against countries (although it claims no longer to use stolen secrets to better itself but only in trade negotiations).

Thoughts on this continuing bust up?

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48253002

I agree with it because China was been a one year street for trade and cash flows for decades.

Reply 31

z-hog

Original post by Fullofsurprises

China should really stop trying to become a superpower and instead focus on things it does well and seek harmonious living with the US and other countries - but it's difficult to trust or give credit to a government that refuses to be accountable, that seeks new dictatorial powers for its current leader, that imprisons millions for being Muslim or protesting, that harvests their organs to run an international organ transplant business - I could go on, but they are a pretty loathsome lot. It isn't fair to leave their people under such a regime, which also happens to be one of the most corrupt and money-seeking on earth. Trump is not really addressing any of these issues head-on. He prefers to seek his own re-election.

This is where the antagonism towards the guy takes off into another dimension, you do point out the challenges posed by China and then go on to accuse Trump of not doing enough about them when he takes them head on like nobody else would. It's one of those where anyone impartial must wonder if he isn't doing the world a favour, China will just rape and pillage their way through the world if unchecked. Not literally, of course.

Reply 32

AperfectBalance

anything to damage china is a good thing

Reply 33

Sheperd23

Original post by The Champion.m4a

I fully support the Trade War. China is a monster that cannot be allowed to become a superpower.

And yes, I'm aware the US is quite evil too, but they're the lesser evil to me.

britain, france, etc were all full fledged monsters before their 'rise' to modernity and 'lesser evil'. why not let china have a piece of this pie?

Reply 34

Sheperd23

Original post by AperfectBalance

anything to damage china is a good thing

britain, france, etc were all full fledged monsters before their 'rise' to modernity and 'lesser evil'. why not let china have a piece of this pie?

Reply 35

AperfectBalance

Original post by Kangaroo17

britain, france, etc were all full fledged monsters before their 'rise' to modernity and 'lesser evil'. why not let china have a piece of this pie?

Because whilst we committed horrible acts we brought civilisation and uplifted millions of people and brought our civilisation as a whole to a new level, and if it was not us then it would have been someone worse, a neccesary evil. China has nothing good to offer and is the manifestation of Evil on this planet and therfore it needs to be destroyed

Reply 36

Sheperd23

Original post by AperfectBalance

well obviously it has its downsides as a rather strict nation, but britain and many western european nations/ and america nowadays are pretty much comparable in terms of evil. China is helping lift many more millons through their projects and investments. They didn't, you know, leave africa in the dust. Tsk tsk.

Bigger power/nation/population = more influence = more evil but more good.

Reply 37

AperfectBalance

Original post by Kangaroo17

We (Britain) did more good in Africa than bad by far. the Africans have ruined what we gave them and have proven to be incapable of ruling (not all africans just africa in general)

And China 'uplifting' their people is the equivalent of a mother raising a child so she can abuse it later in life.
And Africa is now Exploiting African people too.

Reply 38

z-hog

Original post by Kangaroo17

China is helping lift many more millons through their projects and investments. They didn't, you know, leave africa in the dust. Tsk tsk.

We don't know what they will leave Africa looking like once they've sucked up all their resources and it's all funded by us.

Reply 39

Lorenzo457

Original post by AperfectBalance

We (Britain) did more good in Africa than bad by far. the Africans have ruined what we gave them and have proven to be incapable of ruling (not all africans just africa in general)

A contentious assertion there with regards to Britain doing more good than bad in Africa.

Is this the same good that Britain did in India as their share of the world economy fell from 24% before British colonialism to just 4% afterwards?