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Is David Cameron responsible for the mess of Brexit?

Is he the cause why May left today?

Share your houghts.

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Reply 1
Avatar for Neilos
Neilos
18
Cameron is certainly responsible for quite a few things. He promised the referendum as an election bribe, claimed he would campaign to stay in a 'reformed' EU but got sweet FA out of his weak attempt at negotiating said reform. Then he (and the others, eg Osborne) went into the referendum without any kind of plan for what would happen if Leave won. So he's responsible for all that.

I think blame for the current ridiculous mess can be spread a little more evenly... obviously there's May's government, MPs from all sides and all viewpoints, the persistent Remain campaign to undermine Brexit, the hardline Leavers who'll only accept their own vision, the EU itself... and yes, Cameron deserves a bit of blame too for starting it all off and assuming his side would win.
Original post by Kate23456712
Is he the cause why May left today?

Share your houghts.


It is complicated, but there are several factors why we are in this mess.

1. If the EU itself hadnt changed in nature, then we would have more of an economic relationship and we would have less issue with it.
2. The EU has always shown inflexibility for its vision and has been uncompromising. It needs reform. Had they offered a few bones to Cameron, then the vote would have been different.
3. The Tory party has always been split over Europe. The referendum was offered to satisfy the Tory civil war. It would not have happened otherwise.
4. The real mess, which is only with hindsight is that they got the referendum questions spectacularly wrong. nobody expected to leave and there was no clear vision of what would happen after. They just thought there would be a deal and wed get on with ruling ourselves again. Clearly the EU played hardball. Hard to say whose fault that is, but it was spectacular.
5. Nobody even knew what the backstop was, but its been irresistible force v immovable object and why her deal failed. The deal would have gone through then. It is only a transition deal.


Now we get to experience no deal and see what happens. It is very sad the UK is so split and this will last decades or generations.
Do you guys think that when the election happens again next year oR GOD ONLY KNOWS NEXT, Labour will come back in power and fix this issue?
Reply 4
Avatar for Neilos
Neilos
18
Original post by Kate23456712
Do you guys think that when the election happens again next year oR GOD ONLY KNOWS NEXT, Labour will come back in power and fix this issue?

No, Labour are a hopeless rabble under the current leadership. I imagine they'd have made an even bigger mess of things than May did.
Original post by Kate23456712
Do you guys think that when the election happens again next year oR GOD ONLY KNOWS NEXT, Labour will come back in power and fix this issue?

How would they 'fix' things? Labour, with Corbyn, couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery
The only thing they'd do, like the Conservatives have started to consider, is invoke a second referendum which wouldn't 'fix' anything and instead would further betray the public as well as democracy
It’s like...someone drops oil on the floor...but they thought it was bleach to help clean the floor.
They forget about it, leaving it there once they clock it’s actually oil.
Someone sees it and forgets to put a wet sign.
Someone sees it and doesn’t clean it up properly.
Someone sees it and convinces everyone it’s water so we should ignore it and let it evaporate naturally.
One day, someone slips on the oil and breaks their back, but it’s also their fault because they should have paid more attention to the details and see it’s not water.
Who is at fault? The one who made the mistake (and didn’t read the damn label)? The one who didn’t warn the others? The one who flopped at cleaning it up? The one who didn’t make their own proper judgment? Or is it, the one who supplied the oil?
It’s shambolic either way, everyone is stupid
But it wasn't incorrect was it? It wasn't incorrect that we'd be recouping £350mil a week if we left the EU?
What was said on the side of that bus was a suggestion which would obviously be immensely popular with the public, hence why Vote Leave specifically chose that phrase... Turns out it got enough people voting for leave to be the majority
Why people today still act as though what was said on that bus was a promise, and that the bus said 'we will give £350mil to the NHS', I'll never know
Please don't forget that we haven't left the EU yet and so we aren't recouping that £350mil, but it isn't Cameron to blame or the buses or anything else; it's the fickle ones in Westminster who never truly believed in Brexit in the first place and have made a mess of the situation and the country, hence why we're going round in circles
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by Kian Stevens
But it wasn't incorrect was it? It wasn't incorrect that we'd be recouping £350mil a week if we left the EU?


It was incorrect.

I can't believe people are still believing this £350m figure 3-years on.

My god...

Read what Sir Andrew Dilnot and Sir David Norgrove of the UK Statistics Authority wrote... Though I suppose the country has had enough of experts.
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by Kate23456712
Do you guys think that when the election happens again next year oR GOD ONLY KNOWS NEXT, Labour will come back in power and fix this issue?


Labour couldn't fix a broken teacup in a superglue factory :h:
The blame is mostly to be put on Germany and the EU itself, it has turned from a trade organisation to an attempt at a single European government.
Original post by AperfectBalance
The blame is mostly to be put on Germany and the EU itself, it has turned from a trade organisation to an attempt at a single European government.

The EEC, which we voted to remain members of, was as much of a "single European government" as the EU is. It wasn't just some trade organisation.
Original post by 999tigger
It is complicated, but there are several factors why we are in this mess.

1. If the EU itself hadnt changed in nature, then we would have more of an economic relationship and we would have less issue with it.
2. The EU has always shown inflexibility for its vision and has been uncompromising. It needs reform. Had they offered a few bones to Cameron, then the vote would have been different.
3. The Tory party has always been split over Europe. The referendum was offered to satisfy the Tory civil war. It would not have happened otherwise.
4. The real mess, which is only with hindsight is that they got the referendum questions spectacularly wrong. nobody expected to leave and there was no clear vision of what would happen after. They just thought there would be a deal and wed get on with ruling ourselves again. Clearly the EU played hardball. Hard to say whose fault that is, but it was spectacular.
5. Nobody even knew what the backstop was, but its been irresistible force v immovable object and why her deal failed. The deal would have gone through then. It is only a transition deal.


Now we get to experience no deal and see what happens. It is very sad the UK is so split and this will last decades or generations.


I think you are over thinking things. No one really cared about the EU prior to Cameron. It was way down the electorates concerns after NHS, policing, education etc. Cameron called the referendum to appease a small minority of Euro-skeptic Tory MPs. It was then a hate filled campaign of divisive and emotive messages that played to people's fears and prejudices that saw the mood change. It isn't rocket science. You can take any issue and make it evil.
Yes for calling the referendum and for not actively campaigning such as on tv debates when it took place.
Original post by ByEeek
I think you are over thinking things. No one really cared about the EU prior to Cameron. It was way down the electorates concerns after NHS, policing, education etc. Cameron called the referendum to appease a small minority of Euro-skeptic Tory MPs. It was then a hate filled campaign of divisive and emotive messages that played to people's fears and prejudices that saw the mood change. It isn't rocket science. You can take any issue and make it evil.

Massively wrong. The EU especially within the tory part has always been massively contentious.
Original post by 999tigger
Massively wrong. The EU especially within the tory part has always been massively contentious.


That's just it. Within the Tory part. And generally amongst those rich enogh to feel they could be even richer if they could exploit trade channels outside the usual. Those in the Tory party calling for Brexit do so out of self gain, not because of any ideology or greater good. It is the ultimate act of destruction. Like flattening people's homes because you can sell the land from under them.
Him and m Nigel are certainly the two individuals with the most individual blame..

But the majority of the blame is spread among both the labour and Tory parties for constantly uposing the electoral reform that could have avoided this mess..
He is certainly the first person I would blame because he was the person that introduced the idea of brexit in the first place, then ran away with his tail between his legs when things went bad.

But I can’t say I can blame him for the predicament that the UK is in today. There are a number of problems, May’s government e.g. the divide in her party and her inabilty to take on her role as leader. Opposition from within the government and the public, at the moment the uk is soo divided between people who want to leave and people that want to stay ( which I find ridiculous as we have voted to leave already, just accept it!) and there are divisions between those who want to leave (some people want a hard brexit while others still want to have some sort of relationship with the EU).

There are also a bunch of other problems that if I were to list down, would take all day 😂

But Cameron was definitely the start of it all
I feel sorry for Theresa!

The way she cried yesterday in that resignation speech at downing street, shows how dedicated she was to the country,despite people and her own MPs disliking her approach.


Obviously,it could be argued that she did not convince her party and kept delaying the Brexit plans, WE MUST NOT FORGET THE EFFORT SHE HAD PUT TO SOLVE THIS....SHE ATTEMPTED TO SOLVE THE BREXIT ISSUE,WHILE HER own MPS VOTED TO LEAVE AND DO SOMETHIG ABOUT IT,BUT LATER BACKED OFF..

Clearly the level of political leadership is appalling..some of her own MPs like Jacob Rees Mogg, Michael Gove and Boris Hunt wanted to be prime minister from day dote she became PM...Obviously they wanted to sack her by 2017...

Now if we were to choose a New PM, IT SHOULD CLEARLY BE SOMEINE WHO DOES NOT BACK OFF FROM THEIR DUTIES, AND RESOLVED THE ISSUE QUICKLY BEFORE ANY FURTHER MASACRE...


VOTE ON WHICH NO YOU WANT TO BE NEXT PM, WHO HAS GOOD MORAL VALUES AND CAN FIGHT THE DEVIL FELLOW OTHER MPS...WHO HAVE A NEGATIVE APPROACH OVERALL IN BREXOT.
Original post by AperfectBalance
The blame is mostly to be put on Germany and the EU itself, it has turned from a trade organisation to an attempt at a single European government.

There are a number of what ifs including:

1. Would the electorate have overwhelmingly (over 60%) voted to Remain in the EU if it only consisted of the western European countries who were members in 2000?

2. Was mass immigration for eastern Europe the straw that broke the camel's back and the one which popularised Leave amongst the lower socioeconomic groups from (former?) industrial areas like Rotherham?

3. Was massive opposition towards the EU a child of the internet?

Original post by ByEeek
I think you are over thinking things. No one really cared about the EU prior to Cameron. It was way down the electorates concerns after NHS, policing, education etc. Cameron called the referendum to appease a small minority of Euro-skeptic Tory MPs. It was then a hate filled campaign of divisive and emotive messages that played to people's fears and prejudices that saw the mood change. It isn't rocket science. You can take any issue and make it evil.

You are wrong. It was James Goldsmith with his Referendum Party and "sleepwalking into a superstate" that put the issue of the EU into the limelight. The political situation after 1997 concerning the EU was never the same as it was before 1997 and was later responsible for UKIP electing (an increasing number of) MEPs over the years.

The official campaign was a filthy creation of the (largely pro-EU) mainstream media and was a sideshow.

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