Tory Mp, Mark Field, facing calls to be sacked after grabbing protestor by neck.
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Original post by Plagioclase
Absolutely shocking how many of you nutters are happy to excuse literal assault (by someone in public office no less) just because you find protesters annoying. There is absolutely no way that any sane individuals in that room would have thought that these protesters were a safety threat. Why are there so many fascists on TSR these days?
What do you think is an appropriate way for security to remove intruders? I imagine it involves literal assault (laying hands on them). This is even without the intruder being a threat - people need to be able to remove intruders from where they should not be.
As for a safety threat, why would you have public figures declare a default assumption of no threat? That's absolutely insane. I wouldn't have been surprised if the protester had a milkshake or an egg (or the vegan alternative, since it's Greenpeace), but if we insist our leading politicians (such as the Chancellor) should not be protected from aggressive and seemingly unarmed intruders, you're just asking for trouble.
Original post by ThomH97
What do you think is an appropriate way for security to remove intruders? I imagine it involves literal assault (laying hands on them). This is even without the intruder being a threat - people need to be able to remove intruders from where they should not be.
As for a safety threat, why would you have public figures declare a default assumption of no threat? That's absolutely insane. I wouldn't have been surprised if the protester had a milkshake or an egg (or the vegan alternative, since it's Greenpeace), but if we insist our leading politicians (such as the Chancellor) should not be protected from aggressive and seemingly unarmed intruders, you're just asking for trouble.
As for a safety threat, why would you have public figures declare a default assumption of no threat? That's absolutely insane. I wouldn't have been surprised if the protester had a milkshake or an egg (or the vegan alternative, since it's Greenpeace), but if we insist our leading politicians (such as the Chancellor) should not be protected from aggressive and seemingly unarmed intruders, you're just asking for trouble.
Nobody is advocating that. If a security professional uses force to subdue a protester then it would be fair to assume they had (or thought they had at the time) just cause. But Mark Field is not a security professional.
Security would have been trained to assess threat levels and use of proportionate force. The Chancellor's personal security detail would have been there as well. None of the other protesters were manhandled so clearly nobody *whose job it was to keep people safe* thought that the protesters were a danger or that such force would be appropriate. That's why I don't buy this story about Mark Field acting to protect others, it's total BS, he was just angry. You can see it in his face.
Original post by 999tigger
Except they werent there and she was heading towards the chancellor.
Exactly, I do think the neck grabbing was wrong, however he was not trained and gave the protester over as soon as possible to a female to remove.
- Nigel Farage gets a bit milky
"Assault! Lock the perpetrator up"
- an MP physically assaults a peaceful protester
"Well, actually that was justified".
Absolutely absurd. There's no argument here. He should be removed from office and placed in a new room at her majesty's pleasure.
"Assault! Lock the perpetrator up"
- an MP physically assaults a peaceful protester
"Well, actually that was justified".
Absolutely absurd. There's no argument here. He should be removed from office and placed in a new room at her majesty's pleasure.
I think some are like @Andrew97 already said above, some are making a political point scoring point about this rarther than showing any genuine concern about the issue.
I first heard about this on LBC radio today, the way Sheila described it was like he totally man handled her and hurt her, he didn't.
If this had been a female Labour MP kicking out a male Jewish protester or Brexit campaigner. Nothing would be said, this is unfortunate identity politics and party political point scoring. I hope Mr feild gets reinstated ASAP with some further training in removing protesters correctly, and the security issue at the venue is addressed.
I first heard about this on LBC radio today, the way Sheila described it was like he totally man handled her and hurt her, he didn't.
If this had been a female Labour MP kicking out a male Jewish protester or Brexit campaigner. Nothing would be said, this is unfortunate identity politics and party political point scoring. I hope Mr feild gets reinstated ASAP with some further training in removing protesters correctly, and the security issue at the venue is addressed.
Original post by Snufkin
Nobody is advocating that. If a security professional uses force to subdue a protester then it would be fair to assume they had (or thought they had at the time) just cause. But Mark Field is not a security professional.
Security would have been trained to assess threat levels and use of proportionate force. The Chancellor's personal security detail would have been there as well. None of the other protesters were manhandled so clearly nobody *whose job it was to keep people safe* thought that the protesters were a danger or that such force would be appropriate. That's why I don't buy this story about Mark Field acting to protect others, it's total BS, he was just angry. You can see it in his face.
Security would have been trained to assess threat levels and use of proportionate force. The Chancellor's personal security detail would have been there as well. None of the other protesters were manhandled so clearly nobody *whose job it was to keep people safe* thought that the protesters were a danger or that such force would be appropriate. That's why I don't buy this story about Mark Field acting to protect others, it's total BS, he was just angry. You can see it in his face.
So because he isn't a trained 'security professional' he shouldn't step in? I would imagine that, rather than the security who were present (and had blocked and removed other like-minded protesters earlier) deciding that it was fine for her to approach Hammond, that there hadn't been enough of them to fully secure the place and she'd gotten through. You can blame the security for that, but not Field for stepping in to cover. She did need to be stopped before she reached her target, and a message does need to be sent widely that you can't just go for leading (or any) politicians.
Would you feel the same about someone forcefully (or even violently) intervening to break up a theft/fight/mugging/murder/rape, because the police 'should have been there'? That's just looking to blame someone rather than fixing the actual problem before it goes too far.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
- Nigel Farage gets a bit milky
"Assault! Lock the perpetrator up"
- an MP physically assaults a peaceful protester
"Well, actually that was justified".
Absolutely absurd. There's no argument here. He should be removed from office and placed in a new room at her majesty's pleasure.
"Assault! Lock the perpetrator up"
- an MP physically assaults a peaceful protester
"Well, actually that was justified".
Absolutely absurd. There's no argument here. He should be removed from office and placed in a new room at her majesty's pleasure.
You seem to be missing out who the instigators were in each of these situations.
Original post by ThomH97
Would you feel the same about someone forcefully (or even violently) intervening to break up a theft/fight/mugging/murder/rape, because the police 'should have been there'? That's just looking to blame someone rather than fixing the actual problem before it goes too far.
Comparing a woman walking past someone to theft/fight/mugging/murder/rape. Jesus wept. The state of politics these days.
Original post by Snufkin
Comparing a woman walking past someone to theft/fight/mugging/murder/rape. Jesus wept. The state of politics these days.
I was comparing to a range of crimes, and hopefully you don't really think she was just 'walking past someone'. Do you have an answer to the actual question (and in the previous paragraph you omitted quoting) or are you dodging it?
Original post by Snufkin
Comparing a woman walking past someone to theft/fight/mugging/murder/rape. Jesus wept. The state of politics these days.
You're speaking like it was an average person in a bar/restaurant walking by a table, it wasn't. It was a person commiting a crime walking into a private high profile area.
The problem is the with the lack of properly trained security at the venue, not marks actions.
Original post by ThomH97
I was comparing to a range of crimes, and hopefully you don't really think she was just 'walking past someone'.
What else was it trespass? Can i treat trespassing Tory canvassers the same?
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
- Nigel Farage gets a bit milky
"Assault! Lock the perpetrator up"
- an MP physically assaults a peaceful protester
"Well, actually that was justified".
Absolutely absurd. There's no argument here. He should be removed from office and placed in a new room at her majesty's pleasure.
"Assault! Lock the perpetrator up"
- an MP physically assaults a peaceful protester
"Well, actually that was justified".
Absolutely absurd. There's no argument here. He should be removed from office and placed in a new room at her majesty's pleasure.
This is unreasonable.
If you are talking about the milkshake then that is a battery and there shouldnt be any dispute about that.
A battery is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly applies unlawful force to another.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-against-person-incorporating-charging-standard
You cant throw things at other people. I think there is a bit of a tradition with politicians being egged.
I think the question with the MP is whether there was unlawful force , which is for a judge and jury to decide.
I think its perfectly reasonable if you see someone rushing at a secure private meeting with one of the senior ministers of state present that you have to make a judgement call as to whether they pose a risk, they could have a knife or a bomb. If thats what he thought then he is perfectly entitled to prevent her. She had no reason to be there and was a potential threat.
He didnt punch her he just manhandled her and made sure she didnt get to the Chancellor.
I dont think he should be removed from office. He has apologised, but she is the one that broke into a place where there would have been armed officers. Lets see whether the police decide to prosecute and a jury decides to convict.
Original post by the beer
What else was it trespass? Can i treat trespassing Tory canvassers the same?
I suggest you watch the video (including the previous intrusions) and read what the event was. Hopefully you can rise above your apparent blinding bias against Tories.
What should he have done? I trust you don't think he should wait for intruders to reach their targets to make sure they intend physical harm before intervening.
and stop whining about a ****ing milkshake, leaders from both sides get stuff thrown at them by MONGS, i would prefer it didnt happen, but im happy for now its the humilation of eggs and milkshakes rather than guns and bullets, since i dont want to see another jo cox mk 2.
I agree with all that, except that I don't think we should be 'happy' that things aren't as bad as they could be when we could actually do more. Knowing that there's a room of people who are prepared to physically stop you from attacking someone, and remove you from the place is a good deterrent to have.
Original post by Snufkin
Nobody is advocating that. If a security professional uses force to subdue a protester then it would be fair to assume they had (or thought they had at the time) just cause. But Mark Field is not a security professional.
Security would have been trained to assess threat levels and use of proportionate force. The Chancellor's personal security detail would have been there as well. None of the other protesters were manhandled so clearly nobody *whose job it was to keep people safe* thought that the protesters were a danger or that such force would be appropriate. That's why I don't buy this story about Mark Field acting to protect others, it's total BS, he was just angry. You can see it in his face.
Security would have been trained to assess threat levels and use of proportionate force. The Chancellor's personal security detail would have been there as well. None of the other protesters were manhandled so clearly nobody *whose job it was to keep people safe* thought that the protesters were a danger or that such force would be appropriate. That's why I don't buy this story about Mark Field acting to protect others, it's total BS, he was just angry. You can see it in his face.
Which is all the more reason to give some leeway in the method he used. He prevented someone from proceeding who was intent on causing further disruption. He was entitled to do so. Security were already dealing with a number of other protestors. None of the other protestors were making a beeline for the Chancellor. All he did was stop her and then march her out back to security.
If they want to protest they can do so outside.
If they want to invade a secure meeting where there will be armed officers and members of the government then they have to expect they will be prevented and restrained. If he had punched her or kicked her to the ground and around the head then maybe, but all he did was stop and then march her back to security.
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by L i b
Had he simply blocked her and escorted her out, that would have been fine. But by the looks of it, he went too far given the circumstances.
I thought that was more or less what he did? He didnt punch her he didnt inflict malicious pain on her, he just marched her back to security.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
- Nigel Farage gets a bit milky
"Assault! Lock the perpetrator up"
- an MP physically assaults a peaceful protester
"Well, actually that was justified".
Absolutely absurd. There's no argument here. He should be removed from office and placed in a new room at her majesty's pleasure.
"Assault! Lock the perpetrator up"
- an MP physically assaults a peaceful protester
"Well, actually that was justified".
Absolutely absurd. There's no argument here. He should be removed from office and placed in a new room at her majesty's pleasure.
Someone throws a milkshake at a man who was well within his rights to be walking around in a public place because he disagrees with him
someone invades a private? (or at least an event she was not meant to be at) event and tries to harrass people.
Original post by ThomH97
I suggest you watch the video (including the previous intrusions) and read what the event was. Hopefully you can rise above your apparent blinding bias against Tories.
I've seen the video, trespass is trespass, are you not able to explain the point you are trying to make? Maybe you can help me see past my bias.
Original post by the beer
I've seen the video, trespass is trespass, are you not able to explain the point you are trying to make? Maybe you can help me see past my bias.
The point I was making that you jumped on was that she was more than merely 'walking past someone'. Some of the more significant details include that she was part of a larger group, that that group was aggressive and disruptive, that the event was private, that she was targeting an individual, that that individual was a prominent politician, and we have an environment where some people think it's okay to chuck food items or worse at politicians.
You're looking for an excuse to manhandle your typical Tory canvassers, but there isn't a legitimate one here.
Original post by 999tigger
This is unreasonable.
If you are talking about the milkshake then that is a battery and there shouldnt be any dispute about that.
A battery is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly applies unlawful force to another.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-against-person-incorporating-charging-standard
You cant throw things at other people. I think there is a bit of a tradition with politicians being egged.
I think the question with the MP is whether there was unlawful force , which is for a judge and jury to decide.
I think its perfectly reasonable if you see someone rushing at a secure private meeting with one of the senior ministers of state present that you have to make a judgement call as to whether they pose a risk, they could have a knife or a bomb. If thats what he thought then he is perfectly entitled to prevent her. She had no reason to be there and was a potential threat.
He didnt punch her he just manhandled her and made sure she didnt get to the Chancellor.
I dont think he should be removed from office. He has apologised, but she is the one that broke into a place where there would have been armed officers. Lets see whether the police decide to prosecute and a jury decides to convict.
If you are talking about the milkshake then that is a battery and there shouldnt be any dispute about that.
A battery is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly applies unlawful force to another.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-against-person-incorporating-charging-standard
You cant throw things at other people. I think there is a bit of a tradition with politicians being egged.
I think the question with the MP is whether there was unlawful force , which is for a judge and jury to decide.
I think its perfectly reasonable if you see someone rushing at a secure private meeting with one of the senior ministers of state present that you have to make a judgement call as to whether they pose a risk, they could have a knife or a bomb. If thats what he thought then he is perfectly entitled to prevent her. She had no reason to be there and was a potential threat.
He didnt punch her he just manhandled her and made sure she didnt get to the Chancellor.
I dont think he should be removed from office. He has apologised, but she is the one that broke into a place where there would have been armed officers. Lets see whether the police decide to prosecute and a jury decides to convict.
There's a tradition of politicians getting egged, and milkshaking is just a variant on that. It's a misdemeanor yes, but the disparity of reaction between that, which is, let's be honest, pretty much harmless; and an MP grabbing someone who clearly wasn't a threat and slamming them into a pillar, is remarkable. The latter is evidently more serious and should be treated as such.
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