Northern Independence

sounds like youve been watching to much game of thrones.

The other poster was very correct about the south, head down to cornwal, parts of devon etc. and you will see exactly the same issues as you see in the north.

As far as independance goes, the world is pushing ever closer together and ever more connected and globalized.. the idea that splitting up further will lead to any form of prosperity is just backwards and a disaster. Which is a shame, because Ideologically I am very very much in favour of localist ideals, small self governing communities who serve each other, stay together, help one and other, produce their own goods etc. But as much as I like the ideal, its not the way the global world works, and anyone who chooses to go down that route will suffer badly.

As much as they may not like it, the North, and scotland, badly need to be a part of something bigger then themselves. Soctlands solution is simple, get away from london, but relly on the EU. Is the north going to do this? If the cost for their idependance is the EU? When most of the north is heavily in favour of leaving the EU?

Its a disaster of an idea.. its like cornish people voting to leave the EU, despite cornwal recieving more EU funding then any other part of the UK, and clearly being able to see that the EU is more willing to support them then london is..

As much as you're making a joke there are serious petitions with massive followings who want an independent north. In all likelihood when Scotland goes independent and if the northern movement gains enough support we would probably join Scotland. We would finally be free from the oppression of London.

sounds like youve been watching to much game of thrones.

The other poster was very correct about the south, head down to cornwal, parts of devon etc. and you will see exactly the same issues as you see in the north.

As far as independance goes, the world is pushing ever closer together and ever more connected and globalized.. the idea that splitting up further will lead to any form of prosperity is just backwards and a disaster. Which is a shame, because Ideologically I am very very much in favour of localist ideals, small self governing communities who serve each other, stay together, help one and other, produce their own goods etc. But as much as I like the ideal, its not the way the global world works, and anyone who chooses to go down that route will suffer badly.

As much as they may not like it, the North, and scotland, badly need to be a part of something bigger then themselves. Soctlands solution is simple, get away from london, but relly on the EU. Is the north going to do this? If the cost for their idependance is the EU? When most of the north is heavily in favour of leaving the EU?

Its a disaster of an idea.. its like cornish people voting to leave the EU, despite cornwal recieving more EU funding then any other part of the UK, and clearly being able to see that the EU is more willing to support them then london is..

North England and Scotland need to be part of something bigger? But if they joined together they would be part of something bigger then England... Losing both Scotland and North England would finally topple London and end their bullying and disregard for our sacrifices. The EU is an issue that will have to be contended with as I'm not sure how an independent North would function yet (its a relatively new idea) but I am almost sure that we would rather the EU than Westminster (thats how bad it is at the moment).

The world may be pushing closer together- but that doesn't mean we should allow oppression for the sake of togetherness. We should fight it when and where we have to fight it. We should fight for a free North.

Petitions mean little, what matters is the ballot box and in the north the lab-con duopoly is strong. There is no electoral appetite for treason.

Although there are many reasons to oppose this dangerous idea the idea that globalisation means we should all join larger blocks is a europhile myth. Statistically speaking the highest per capita economies are those with small populations whether part of the EU or not. An independent Yorkshire for example would likely be a net exporter of fish, veg and shale gas... the bigger issue is that it would reduce our relevance in the world.

Tom, your last post was perhaps your most naive. The North East and Yorkshire despise the EU and that was backed in the European elections where the No Deal Parties massively outpolled the deal parties.

To attain independence and hand sovereignty back to Brussels would be an offensive act.

North England and Scotland need to be part of something bigger? But if they joined together they would be part of something bigger then England... Losing both Scotland and North England would finally topple London and end their bullying and disregard for our sacrifices. The EU is an issue that will have to be contended with as I'm not sure how an independent North would function yet (its a relatively new idea) but I am almost sure that we would rather the EU than Westminster (thats how bad it is at the moment).

The world may be pushing closer together- but that doesn't mean we should allow oppression for the sake of togetherness. We should fight it when and where we have to fight it. We should fight for a free North.

I agree with essentially everything you said however there is currently no way to express a will for independence electorally- there is no northern Independence Party and we have already seen movements away from Labour and Conservative parties in the EU elections. Now would be the moment for a new party calling for independence to surge up and take freedom.

I do agree it would be better to self govern than hand our reigns back to Brussels and honestly the majority of the north would agree. However I will provide a link to one of the more dated petitions calling for a union between northern England and Scotland: https://www.change.org/p/the-uk-government-allow-the-north-of-england-to-secede-from-the-uk-and-join-scotland

Bare in mind that this petition was almost completely unpublicised and so it’s significant following was most likely generated from word of mouth alone. Imagine what would happen if a real following with a PR department and advertisements to raise awareness took the reigns...

Only in the UK, is london giving thousands of millions more then the north earns to the north every year... 'oppression'

None of this means that there are not problems with wealth dispersion... but that's true of almost all countries. its a pretty universal societal fact: Wealth gravitates to wealth.. look at any country and you will see hubs of wealth, and usually one or two big hubs. For a country of our size one hub is normal.. you have to get to the size of the USA/China/India to start seeing multiple competing hubs who are able to rival each other.

Even if you shrunk your nation down to just the north.. wealth would still gravitate towards one area, probably the manchester/liverpool region, and the rest would still be worse off just as the north is now.. just that everything would be smaller in scale.

I'm going to break this down for you, and give you some actual numbers, so you can see why this is a fantasy:


An independant north, would be the poorest nation in northern your, and more inline with eastern europe then the west. Add in scotland, and its a little better but...

London alone has a higher GVA then the entire north... add in scotland, they are marginally bigger then just london (431 for london, 480, North+scot) but the you add in the rest of the south, and its 1470 vs 480 (GVA, in millions6).

So if you mean bigger then the new england in terms of wealth? nope.. over 3x as poor
Bigger in terms of population? Nope, 20.4m vs 46m, half as many people
Bigger in terms of geographical area? I don't know, I'm not going to measure it.. but it doesn't make a lot of difference...

You would have to add in wales, N.I, all of the midlands, to making a bigger nation than the rest.. and by that point, basically you just want the UK minus london...

There is a clue to why this is stupid in those numbers I posted above...

Your new north, would take 30% of the people away from the Uk.. but only retain 20% of the wealth? Why is that...?

The answer is because currently, the south east subsides the rest of the UK heavily.. they don't suck wealth from you, they give wealth to you. To start with, look at raw spending per person (2018)

Soctland: 10,881
N.I: 11,190
Wales: 10399
London: 10,323
North east+west: 9,800
Midlands av. 8,700
South west: 8,600
East: 8,300
South east: 8290

So.. scotland gets more per person then london and the entire south...
The north gets more then the entire south apart from london...

in fact, every person in the north is recieving 1600 more each year on average then people in the south east?

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But that doesn't tell you the whole story, that only tells you how much is being spent, not how much each section is earning..

Add in that and it looks like this:

London: spends 30,000m less then it generates in tax revenue
South east: spends 15,000m less then it generates in tax revenue
East: spends 2,000m less then it generates in tax revenue
North east: spends 10,000 MORE then it generates in tax revenue
North west: spends 22,000 MORE then it generates in tax revenue
Yorkshire: spends 8,000 MORE then it generates in tax revenue

(etc.

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So here are the cold facts to your new indepedant north:

1. You will be 3x as poor as the southern-UK
2. The north already has more spent on it then the south
3. The north currently spends far more money then it earns
4. The only way the north can spend this money, is because london and the south gives more of theirs
5. If the north were idenepdant, and didn't have the souths money.. they would instantly become significantly poorer.

Nope, there is a Yorkshire Independence Party, it gets about 1% of the vote.

Only in the UK, is london giving thousands of millions more then the north earns to the north every year... 'oppression'

None of this means that there are not problems with wealth dispersion... but that's true of almost all countries. its a pretty universal societal fact: Wealth gravitates to wealth.. look at any country and you will see hubs of wealth, and usually one or two big hubs. For a country of our size one hub is normal.. you have to get to the size of the USA/China/India to start seeing multiple competing hubs who are able to rival each other.

Even if you shrunk your nation down to just the north.. wealth would still gravitate towards one area, probably the manchester/liverpool region, and the rest would still be worse off just as the north is now.. just that everything would be smaller in scale.

And this ladies and gentlemen is why we need independence. This southern wallaby thinks it's about money. The north knows they are poor- we have had significantly less investment than needed to maintain our region, plus your complete lack of understanding of why London might be richer (hint: it's the capital city) shows your disregard for the will of the people.

The problems you have described were caused BY SOUTHERNERS. We know we are poorer, and we are sick of it. Look at the differences in life expectancy, compare investment rates (as an actual figure), compare progress to higher education. You will start to see how we have been oppressed and bullied by southerners who know nothing of how we live our lives.

Also I meant bigger in terms of geographical area. The issue of population is a good thing and I don't really see how you can spin it any other way. The main point of this is that if Scotland and northern England leave the union it would certainly collapse the UK and end their presence on the global stage, and there is no way you can argue against that. See how much wealth the south generates when their country is falling apart.

About 100 thousand in total... So considering I hadn't even heard of it this is serious

"will of the people" what will.. there is no public will for northern indepdance.

"look at the differences in life expectancy, investment rates, higher education" - Yes I do.. how do you think life expectancy will go, once the north looses 30% of its revenue each year?

If you meant bigger in terms of geographical area, then I haven't checked if its true.. but it makes no difference.. being bigger geographically won't help you to feed the people, give them healthcare, provide them with jobs.. all things which the south currently subsides.

"We have had significantly less investment" - no, you have had more investment then you earn yourself.. and more investment each year per head, then the south east and the south west....

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I mean, I can understand scotish indepdnance somewhat.. and brexit somewhat.. but north indepdance is only one stage less crazy then cornish independance.

You would litterally be biting off the hand that feeds you. Not the hand that oppresses you.

This is ********! I hate this stereotype that everyone down south is posh and has an easy upbringing. I've grown up in some of the most impoverished areas of the country being in London, and some of the south's sea side towns are the most deprived areas in the UK. So don't stereotype everyone please, because we aren't all posh ******s down south.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/poverty-blamed-on-widening-north-south-gap-in-young-adult-deaths/

You think you're poor? We are literally dying.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/poverty-blamed-on-widening-north-south-gap-in-young-adult-deaths/

You think you're poor? We are literally dying.

How were we meant to call for independence? There is no northern independence party but there have been numerous petitions with hundreds of thousands of signatures calling for a free north.

Also no we have had significantly less investment: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/01/transport-spending-gap-london-north-of-england-ippr

Over the last 10 years the north has missed out on almost £63 billion compared to the south.

You seriously think that the south will be able to hold the UK together without the north? I think life expectancy will increase once we start investing in our own areas again, fixing the things that we can see are causing the problems. This was never about money- it was about freedom.

(Original post by TomSmith12345)Again... It's not really about the wealth... If nothing at all a call for independence would wake up London to how sick the rest of the UK is to their rule, disregarding our will and the will of the people. Forcing us to conform to their political views and suppressing any opposition. Have you not realised that every country in the UK is currently going for independence? London needs to adapt or die and this wake up call will tell them that

"its not really about wealth" - and yet all of your problems are wealth.. so far youve listed health care, life expectancy, educational outcomes and investment..

Guess what, all of those are driven by money.

Decrease your money, and all of those will decrease.

Principles don't pay very well.

Only one part of the UK is strongly pushing for independance and that's scotland, and as I said above, they are in a much much better possition then the North, given they are more wealthy, are more historically established as their own nation, and most importantly - are very very happy to be part of the EU.

A north without the UK, or the EU, is a disaster. Its one of the poorest nations in Europe overnight, and without any international support, it would collapse in days. As part of the EU its more possible.. but given that we know 100% that the people of the north don't want to be part of the EU, this won't work... what we don't know is that they want to leave the UK.We have a referndum showing a majority wanting to leave the EU, we have nothing to show that they want to leave the UK.

I’ve just finished my first year of university and throughout the entirety of it I noticed the strong divide between northern England and southern England. As a northerner, I was aware that the south was better off than us and most of the southerners had massively easier upbringings with more access to resources and much heavier investment in their regions. What I wasn’t aware of was how the south looked down on us, they believe us to be their inferiors, mocking our accents and our poverty (which was often created by southerners lack of investment and infrastructure for our lands). The vast majority of southerners I came across found it strange that someone with my accent and upbringing had managed to make it to medical school. No more.

I attend a northern university and hence I have seen how most northerners have similar experiences to my own. Treating the north as their plaything before they go home to wealth and easy lives. Then today I wondered if there had ever been secession calls from the north to leave the UK and there have been many. With many tens of thousands of supporters calling out for a voice. I say it’s time we gave it them. For too long has the north been ignored, too long have the front benches of parliament been lined with Etonians with the same irreverence to our region as those before them.

The UK isn’t London, and we’re waking up. We are fed up of the south looking down on us. It’s time we left. The UK won’t survive the coming decades as it is, and if the North wants to be strong again, we have to leave those who use and abuse our people and our land. #FreeTheNorth