This discussion is now closed.
Check out other Related discussions
- Empathic people not liking people with Asperger's syndrome
- I’m 29 and never had a date or first kiss, is it due to being overweight?
- Can I be a Vet with youth cautions
- Will the Army find out if I falsify my medical records?
- Got a job where everyone with the same or similar job title has a degree
- Feeling worthless
- My son was expelled from uni
- Is aspergers a death sentence for having a social life
- Excluded from sixth form, what to do?
- There's something wrong with me.
- Opinion on Autism diagnosis
- My mental health
- University
- Big bang theory
- Dating as a Trans Person
- Your Disability Experiences
- I really don't understand Cambridge applications
- Self-doubting myself for Oxford
- Advice with imposter syndrome
- Shall I apply for a job that I do not fully meet the requirements for?
Scroll to see replies
YES IT IS!!
Don't let an 'illness' stop you from continuing on higher studies. You can fight it and succeed and prove anyone who's ever said you can't wrong.
YOU can do it and I believe in you.
Don't let an 'illness' stop you from continuing on higher studies. You can fight it and succeed and prove anyone who's ever said you can't wrong.
YOU can do it and I believe in you.
I'm asking the question from the perspective of employment and careers rather than acquiring a piece of paper with a grade on it.
Just because a person is excellent when it comes to mathematics, biochemistry, history of the Aztecs etc. doesn't in any way imply that they are excellent material for life in the world of corporate Britain. There's really no point spending time, money, and effort on higher education if you find out that you can do almost nothing with it in the real world unless all you care about is displaying your certificate on the wall.
There has been a discussion about the matter in home education communities. Points raised include:
Although exact figures do not exist (and many published figures cover ALL types of autistic spectrum disorders) there is certainly evidence that unemployment and underemployment is significantly higher for people with Asperger syndrome than it is for people without Asperger syndrome that hold comparable qualifications.
There is anecdotal evidence that people with Asperger syndrome tend to end up in positions that are more junior or with a lower level of responsibility and fewer opportunities to use their knowledge and skills than people without Asperger syndrome in the same organisation. They also have a greater tendency to be passed over for promotion whilst their colleagues without Asperger syndrome with a lower level of qualifications and knowledge / hard skills end up getting promoted to more senior positions.
There is a massive glut of graduates in almost all disciplines, even STEM.
As a result of there being a glut of graduates, employers are commonly using soft skills as a prominent deciding factor of who should be hired. This puts people with Asperger syndrome at a huge disadvantage.
Just because a person is excellent when it comes to mathematics, biochemistry, history of the Aztecs etc. doesn't in any way imply that they are excellent material for life in the world of corporate Britain. There's really no point spending time, money, and effort on higher education if you find out that you can do almost nothing with it in the real world unless all you care about is displaying your certificate on the wall.
There has been a discussion about the matter in home education communities. Points raised include:
Although exact figures do not exist (and many published figures cover ALL types of autistic spectrum disorders) there is certainly evidence that unemployment and underemployment is significantly higher for people with Asperger syndrome than it is for people without Asperger syndrome that hold comparable qualifications.
There is anecdotal evidence that people with Asperger syndrome tend to end up in positions that are more junior or with a lower level of responsibility and fewer opportunities to use their knowledge and skills than people without Asperger syndrome in the same organisation. They also have a greater tendency to be passed over for promotion whilst their colleagues without Asperger syndrome with a lower level of qualifications and knowledge / hard skills end up getting promoted to more senior positions.
There is a massive glut of graduates in almost all disciplines, even STEM.
As a result of there being a glut of graduates, employers are commonly using soft skills as a prominent deciding factor of who should be hired. This puts people with Asperger syndrome at a huge disadvantage.
Depends on what they want to do. If you want a job that requires further education then possibly. If not then it's a waste
Original post by Student-95
Depends on what they want to do. If you want a job that requires further education then possibly. If not then it's a waste
You haven't factored in the situation where a person wants a career that requires higher education (or is difficult to enter without) but they, after countless repeated attempts, fail to enter that career. There are hundreds of thousands of graduates who never manage to obtain a graduate job or one that makes use of their skills and knowledge but instead they can only find employment in more basic jobs. If the odds are stacked against applicants with Asperger syndrome simply because of a combination of the huge pool of graduates and employers heavily making the decisions who to hire on soft skills, then it raises questions whether a degree is a good choice for people with Asperger syndrome.
Another factor is whether the person actually enjoys the career or fits in well with their work colleagues although this is more general rather than Asperger specific.
Original post by Dilof
This assumes everyone with Aspergers has the exact same traits and problems fitting in to society. It's a case by case basis as with every other human being, some are better suited for HE while others aren't.
You make a valid point. HE is very different from school education.
However, assume for the purpose of this discussion that the individuals in question have graduated and hold a degree or similar higher level qualification.
This thread raises a very interesting point, one that I've never come across before.
As someone with ASD, I'd argue that higher education is worth it because without obtaining that degree you'd only be putting yourself at an even further disadvantage against other "ordinary" graduates, because now not only would they have a superior array of soft skills but higher qualifications than you to boot. Not getting a degree purely because you have ASD is a horrible idea, as it's essentially admitting defeat before you have even tried (not suggesting there aren't other routes than a degree, but you get my point).
Sure, you might lose out on a couple of jobs that you would otherwise have obtained if you had the soft skills to sell yourself for them, but in careers such as technology (one that ASD sufferers are renowned for going into), it's almost expected of any graduate to be a bit introverted, and if you try hard enough and really put yourself out there getting that job can still be done.
Once you're in a graduate job, your CV will speak for itself from that point onwards. This will make it easier to get employed based on what you have delivered in past roles as opposed to a chat with an employer by way of an interview fresh out of uni, with only some letters and numbers behind you just like everybody else.
tl;dr not doing higher education as an ASD sufferer is admitting defeat, try hard enough to get the job and eventually someone will hire you because you have the skillset just not the soft skills. Once you have done this your CV will speak for itself and soft skills will be less required to sell yourself.
As someone with ASD, I'd argue that higher education is worth it because without obtaining that degree you'd only be putting yourself at an even further disadvantage against other "ordinary" graduates, because now not only would they have a superior array of soft skills but higher qualifications than you to boot. Not getting a degree purely because you have ASD is a horrible idea, as it's essentially admitting defeat before you have even tried (not suggesting there aren't other routes than a degree, but you get my point).
Sure, you might lose out on a couple of jobs that you would otherwise have obtained if you had the soft skills to sell yourself for them, but in careers such as technology (one that ASD sufferers are renowned for going into), it's almost expected of any graduate to be a bit introverted, and if you try hard enough and really put yourself out there getting that job can still be done.
Once you're in a graduate job, your CV will speak for itself from that point onwards. This will make it easier to get employed based on what you have delivered in past roles as opposed to a chat with an employer by way of an interview fresh out of uni, with only some letters and numbers behind you just like everybody else.
tl;dr not doing higher education as an ASD sufferer is admitting defeat, try hard enough to get the job and eventually someone will hire you because you have the skillset just not the soft skills. Once you have done this your CV will speak for itself and soft skills will be less required to sell yourself.
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by Arran90
You haven't factored in the situation where a person wants a career that requires higher education (or is difficult to enter without) but they, after countless repeated attempts, fail to enter that career. There are hundreds of thousands of graduates who never manage to obtain a graduate job or one that makes use of their skills and knowledge but instead they can only find employment in more basic jobs. If the odds are stacked against applicants with Asperger syndrome simply because of a combination of the huge pool of graduates and employers heavily making the decisions who to hire on soft skills, then it raises questions whether a degree is a good choice for people with Asperger syndrome.
Another factor is whether the person actually enjoys the career or fits in well with their work colleagues although this is more general rather than Asperger specific.
Another factor is whether the person actually enjoys the career or fits in well with their work colleagues although this is more general rather than Asperger specific.
The same situation applies to many students without aspergers and I did factor it in by saying 'possibly'. There's a chance you go through higher education but don't end up using it.
All of the responses to this thread seem to be largely missing the OP's point. Many people with ASD often find social interaction difficult, even though they may be intelligent and academically gifted. This doesn't necessarily mean they will find it difficult to start and continue a mundane conversation with another person, but rather it means they may lack tact, empathy and have problems with things such as predicting other people's behaviour, or finding the right thing to say in any given situation. They may not be particularly talented at navigating the minefield that is the peculiarities of human social protocol, or constructing a useful model of other people's behaviour and using that model to help them in social situations or predict behaviour. In short, they often lack social skills.
I acknowledge this is not universally true, and there are autistic people who are only mildly afflicted, and thus are not significantly inhibited in social interaction, however, the vast majority of autistic people do have at least slight difficulty with social interaction, with this difficulty being more pronounced amongst those with more severe autism.
Reply to above: Autism is not universally a gift. Clearly you are on the very high-functioning end of autism, and for that reason, your experiences do not translate to the majority of those so afflicted. Many autistic people, regardless of how academically gifted they may be, are held back in a realistic workplace environment by the inherent psychosocial hindrances of ASD. You are the exception, not the rule.
I acknowledge this is not universally true, and there are autistic people who are only mildly afflicted, and thus are not significantly inhibited in social interaction, however, the vast majority of autistic people do have at least slight difficulty with social interaction, with this difficulty being more pronounced amongst those with more severe autism.
Original post by crazygoatlady
Sorry, I think that this is rather ignorant. (Or this has hit a nerve).
Everyone is unique. Some people without an autistic spectrum disorder will not function as well in certain jobs, it depends what difficulties an individual may face?
I have my "few" 10 A* GCSES, have excelled in the "basic job" including retail actually (we can have great social skills too).
I won't be an unemployed vet. I will specialise in my "special interest". I could list the wonderful gifts autism has given me to do the work I do.
So to any other autistic readers, don't care about the other opinion. Autism is a gift, use your gift through higher education (if this suits you as a unique human being).
Everyone is unique. Some people without an autistic spectrum disorder will not function as well in certain jobs, it depends what difficulties an individual may face?
I have my "few" 10 A* GCSES, have excelled in the "basic job" including retail actually (we can have great social skills too).
I won't be an unemployed vet. I will specialise in my "special interest". I could list the wonderful gifts autism has given me to do the work I do.
So to any other autistic readers, don't care about the other opinion. Autism is a gift, use your gift through higher education (if this suits you as a unique human being).
Reply to above: Autism is not universally a gift. Clearly you are on the very high-functioning end of autism, and for that reason, your experiences do not translate to the majority of those so afflicted. Many autistic people, regardless of how academically gifted they may be, are held back in a realistic workplace environment by the inherent psychosocial hindrances of ASD. You are the exception, not the rule.
Original post by Arran90
Is higher education worthwhile for people with Asperger syndrome or would it be better for them to get a few GCSEs / Level 2 qualifications and start work in a basic job instead?
There's no simple answer to this question, it can only really be addressed on an individual basis. Autism is a spectrum, with characteristics of autism varying both in existence and severity depending upon the person. People with mild autism may only have minor difficulties with social interaction, if any. Those more afflicted may have much greater difficulty. Ultimately, the answer to the question must be predicated entirely upon the abilities and difficulties of that individual.
If this question directly pertains to your personal academic decisions, introspection must be your first port of call.
Sure, but there are still instances where social skills are very important. If you are teaching in academia as a professor, for example, you will need to be able to interact with your students proficiently, not only in order to be approachable in the first place, but to actually render assistance. If you want to become the head of a department, academic or otherwise, it will be very important to be able to interact with your colleagues in a socially competent way.
Even if we're just talking about entry-level jobs, as the OP pointed out, amongst two applicants with equal qualifications, an employer is more likely to select the applicant who has good people skills. Even amongst researchers - afaik most published academic/scientific papers have more than one name on them - you need to be able to interact and co-ordinate with your fellow researchers.
Even if we're just talking about entry-level jobs, as the OP pointed out, amongst two applicants with equal qualifications, an employer is more likely to select the applicant who has good people skills. Even amongst researchers - afaik most published academic/scientific papers have more than one name on them - you need to be able to interact and co-ordinate with your fellow researchers.
(edited 4 years ago)
Depends on their personal goals and motivation. If that's what it takes for an individual to get to where they want to be then they should go for it regardless of what obstacles might make it harder.
Sure, but like I said, often you'll still have to co-operate with other researchers. Social skills are never entirely removed from the equation. And while promotion may not be, actually getting employed in the first place often is, taking into account both your qualifications and 'soft skills'.
And besides, not everyone wants to get a job as a researcher. Anyway, the OP's question was about whether higher education was viable in the context of employment. I quote:
And besides, not everyone wants to get a job as a researcher. Anyway, the OP's question was about whether higher education was viable in the context of employment. I quote:
Original post by Arran90
I'm asking the question from the perspective of employment and careers rather than acquiring a piece of paper with a grade on it.
Just because a person is excellent when it comes to mathematics, biochemistry, history of the Aztecs etc. doesn't in any way imply that they are excellent material for life in the world of corporate Britain. There's really no point spending time, money, and effort on higher education if you find out that you can do almost nothing with it in the real world unless all you care about is displaying your certificate on the wall.
There has been a discussion about the matter in home education communities. Points raised include:
Although exact figures do not exist (and many published figures cover ALL types of autistic spectrum disorders) there is certainly evidence that unemployment and underemployment is significantly higher for people with Asperger syndrome than it is for people without Asperger syndrome that hold comparable qualifications.
There is anecdotal evidence that people with Asperger syndrome tend to end up in positions that are more junior or with a lower level of responsibility and fewer opportunities to use their knowledge and skills than people without Asperger syndrome in the same organisation. They also have a greater tendency to be passed over for promotion whilst their colleagues without Asperger syndrome with a lower level of qualifications and knowledge / hard skills end up getting promoted to more senior positions.
There is a massive glut of graduates in almost all disciplines, even STEM.
As a result of there being a glut of graduates, employers are commonly using soft skills as a prominent deciding factor of who should be hired. This puts people with Asperger syndrome at a huge disadvantage.
Just because a person is excellent when it comes to mathematics, biochemistry, history of the Aztecs etc. doesn't in any way imply that they are excellent material for life in the world of corporate Britain. There's really no point spending time, money, and effort on higher education if you find out that you can do almost nothing with it in the real world unless all you care about is displaying your certificate on the wall.
There has been a discussion about the matter in home education communities. Points raised include:
Although exact figures do not exist (and many published figures cover ALL types of autistic spectrum disorders) there is certainly evidence that unemployment and underemployment is significantly higher for people with Asperger syndrome than it is for people without Asperger syndrome that hold comparable qualifications.
There is anecdotal evidence that people with Asperger syndrome tend to end up in positions that are more junior or with a lower level of responsibility and fewer opportunities to use their knowledge and skills than people without Asperger syndrome in the same organisation. They also have a greater tendency to be passed over for promotion whilst their colleagues without Asperger syndrome with a lower level of qualifications and knowledge / hard skills end up getting promoted to more senior positions.
There is a massive glut of graduates in almost all disciplines, even STEM.
As a result of there being a glut of graduates, employers are commonly using soft skills as a prominent deciding factor of who should be hired. This puts people with Asperger syndrome at a huge disadvantage.
That rather requires that you get hired in the first place, in which case, they will care about your soft skills. Not to the extent that they'd hire someone with better soft skills but worse credentials, but rather, amongst two equally qualified applicants, the chap with better soft skills is more likely to be hired. And, like I said, most people who go into higher education are not doing so with the goal of becoming a researcher.
(edited 4 years ago)
It's relevant because you're only considering one field. Soft skills matter less in research jobs, agreed. My point was that they still do matter, just to a lesser extent, and that not everyone wants to get a job in academia. And, by the way, I never took issue with you recommending the OP partake in STEM. My issue was with all the folk saying 'oh, don't be silly, there's nothing wrong with you, you can do anything' because it's a blatant denial of reality.
I don't have the energy to continue this; we're not really going anywhere, probably because we may have missed what the other was saying, and it's not a topic I am particularly interested in anyhow.
I don't have the energy to continue this; we're not really going anywhere, probably because we may have missed what the other was saying, and it's not a topic I am particularly interested in anyhow.
Original post by Kill3rCat
All of the responses to this thread seem to be largely missing the OP's point. Many people with ASD often find social interaction difficult, even though they may be intelligent and academically gifted. This doesn't necessarily mean they will find it difficult to start and continue a mundane conversation with another person, but rather it means they may lack tact, empathy and have problems with things such as predicting other people's behaviour, or finding the right thing to say in any given situation. They may not be particularly talented at navigating the minefield that is the peculiarities of human social protocol, or constructing a useful model of other people's behaviour and using that model to help them in social situations or predict behaviour. In short, they often lack social skills.
They have completely missed the point, and the factors in post #4.
Even job interview and selection procedures are now designed in a way to weed out applicants with weak social skills in areas such as tact, diplomacy, empathy, being able to make very quick decisions, leadership ability, and multitasking.
I acknowledge this is not universally true, and there are autistic people who are only mildly afflicted, and thus are not significantly inhibited in social interaction, however, the vast majority of autistic people do have at least slight difficulty with social interaction, with this difficulty being more pronounced amongst those with more severe autism.
This discussion is about Asperger syndrome and assumes the individuals are of reasonably high academic ability and have no speech or language delays. It does not cover the entire autism spectrum or people with more severe variants of autism.
If you can manage to land an academic position, and it's not easy.
I know someone with Asperger syndrome who has a PhD in mechanical engineering. He had a reasonably good career in industry until 2009 when he was laid off due to cutbacks. Since then he has never managed to obtain a proper engineering job and now works in a car body shop. Many a time he has applied to academic positions without an ounce of success.
One tip of advice he gives to kids (and their parents) is to ensure that they are good with their hands as well as their brain. This is despite school being almost all brain and no hands, yet so many mid-range jobs out there require people who are good with their hands. He believes the fact that he was always practical and hands on as a child (to the dismay of his parents and teachers) was his saving grace from an unskilled job in retail or the service sector.
I know someone with Asperger syndrome who has a PhD in mechanical engineering. He had a reasonably good career in industry until 2009 when he was laid off due to cutbacks. Since then he has never managed to obtain a proper engineering job and now works in a car body shop. Many a time he has applied to academic positions without an ounce of success.
One tip of advice he gives to kids (and their parents) is to ensure that they are good with their hands as well as their brain. This is despite school being almost all brain and no hands, yet so many mid-range jobs out there require people who are good with their hands. He believes the fact that he was always practical and hands on as a child (to the dismay of his parents and teachers) was his saving grace from an unskilled job in retail or the service sector.
Related discussions
- Empathic people not liking people with Asperger's syndrome
- I’m 29 and never had a date or first kiss, is it due to being overweight?
- Can I be a Vet with youth cautions
- Will the Army find out if I falsify my medical records?
- Got a job where everyone with the same or similar job title has a degree
- Feeling worthless
- My son was expelled from uni
- Is aspergers a death sentence for having a social life
- Excluded from sixth form, what to do?
- There's something wrong with me.
- Opinion on Autism diagnosis
- My mental health
- University
- Big bang theory
- Dating as a Trans Person
- Your Disability Experiences
- I really don't understand Cambridge applications
- Self-doubting myself for Oxford
- Advice with imposter syndrome
- Shall I apply for a job that I do not fully meet the requirements for?
Latest
Last reply 14 minutes ago
Official Cambridge Postgraduate Applicants 2024 ThreadPosted 22 minutes ago
Unit 3 Health and Social Care retake OCRLast reply 26 minutes ago
Government Social Research - Research Officer Scheme 2024Last reply 32 minutes ago
ATAS (Academic, Technology, Approval Scheme) Certificate 2023/2024Last reply 47 minutes ago
LSE International Social and Public Policy and Economics (LLK1) 2024 ThreadPosted 47 minutes ago
Failed 2 out of 3 exams semester 1 and scared about the 3 I have left in semester 2.Last reply 51 minutes ago
Official Dental Hygiene and Therapy (Oral Health Science) 2024 Entry ThreadDentistry
2927
Last reply 1 hour ago
University of Oxford 2025 Undergraduate Applicants Official ThreadLast reply 2 hours ago
Official University of Edinburgh Applicant Thread for 2024Trending
Last reply 18 hours ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 20 hours ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 18 hours ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 20 hours ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
