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Reply 380
Avatar for QE2
QE2
20
Original post by Wired_1800
You can arrive at any conclusion you want with a good data stat. For me, 1000 people is a small sample size to use for such a strong conclusion. Also we don't know where the people were selected from. Were they from Birmingham, London, Bradford, Luton, Kent, Manchester, Leeds, Brighton, Edinburgh or Cardiff? Also, what groups of Muslims were they? Were they Shia, Sunni or other groups?

The issue with this is that I can go to a part of the US, where there are extreme christians, and take a sample with which I conclude that a majority of Christians believe this and that.

I also remember to have seen criticism of the survey on BBC by some commentators. I guess you would probably dismiss that because it is the BBC.

This is a shame, because it means that you also have to reject all those surveys that show British Muslims as generally ordinary, decent people who reject or oppose the more medieval and extreme elements of Islam and see being Muslim and British as entirely compatible.

I guess all you can do is look at the contents of the Quran and Sunnah and say "this is what Muslims believe" then?
Original post by QE2
This is a shame, because it means that you also have to reject all those surveys that show British Muslims as generally ordinary, decent people who reject or oppose the more medieval and extreme elements of Islam and see being Muslim and British as entirely compatible.

I guess all you can do is look at the contents of the Quran and Sunnah and say "this is what Muslims believe" then?

@Wired_1800 has also put himself at the disadvantage of rejecting the criticism of ex-muslims on the basis of a "clouded judgment" as well as the theology of Muslims on the basis of "religious zealotry".
Original post by QE2
This is a shame, because it means that you also have to reject all those surveys that show British Muslims as generally ordinary, decent people who reject or oppose the more medieval and extreme elements of Islam and see being Muslim and British as entirely compatible.

I guess all you can do is look at the contents of the Quran and Sunnah and say "this is what Muslims believe" then?


Yes, I would discount both the positives and the negatives. A poor study, to me, does not mean that I choose the positives and reject the negatives. It is all or nothing.
Reply 383
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QE2
20
Original post by Wired_1800
I don't know the methodology, but I am not willing to blindly support it like you have done. I have the right to exercise healthy skepticism, as we don't know the source and reason for such a survey.

It really does sound like you are simply objecting to the result rather than having any genuine concerns with the methodology.

To me, just because a survey is done does not mean that it shows a true and accurate picture of reality.

Here is a link to the survey methodology. Have a read and tell us where it is flawed.
https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Survey-of-Muslims_Sampling-approach.pdf
Original post by Ascend
@Wired_1800 has also put himself at the disadvantage of rejecting the criticism of ex-muslims on the basis of a "clouded judgment" as well as the theology of Muslims on the basis of "religious zealotry".

No. I have stated that an ex-Muslim, ex-Christian or whatever would not obviously be singing praises for the religion that they left. That is a logical conclusion.

I met a Jewish man who wanted to leave Judaism and marry a non-Jewish woman. He said many unpleasant things about Jews and Israel. It was obvious that he would not be singing and dancing about a religion that he is leaving.
Original post by James2312
Because they never do that do they? If Jews Christians and Muslims kept it to the mosque or their house there would be no problem.But they don't.They come around knocking on doors, or stand in the street with a megaphone or they try to interfere in the making of laws.We're the only modern democracy who have 26 bishops in the lords for example.Why? If they stay out of my life I'll stay out of theirs.Yet that never happens.Just take a look at the abortion thing in America.Thats largely about religious people imposing their views on an entire state.

This is not really true though, is it? With 26 bishops, we have abortion, gay rights, diversity and more liberalism. You are making stuff up. The presence of bishops does not stop the UK from being a friendly place for diverse people.
Original post by QE2
It really does sound like you are simply objecting to the result rather than having any genuine concerns with the methodology.


Here is a link to the survey methodology. Have a read and tell us where it is flawed.
https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Survey-of-Muslims_Sampling-approach.pdf

I have read it
Reply 387
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QE2
20
Original post by Wired_1800
I apply health skepticism to many things including religion.

But not to the issue of Islam not encouraging homophobia in its followers, apparently.

I never said it was completely wrong, but if there is an error in the source or methodology then one should question it.

But this is the point. Neither you, nor anyone else, has shown a flaw in the methodology. They merely reject its findings - apparently because they do not conform to an existing position.

For me, I am questioning the sample size. If they surveyed 1000 people to conclude that a majority like Shepherd’s Pie or cake, that would be different to concluding that a majority of British muslims essentially hate homosexuals

1. Why would is be different?
2. The conclusion isn't that "a majority of British muslims essentially hate homosexuals". It is that 52% think that homosexuality should be illegal. Not the same thing.
Original post by QE2
But not to the issue of Islam not encouraging homophobia in its followers, apparently.


But this is the point. Neither you, nor anyone else, has shown a flaw in the methodology. They merely reject its findings - apparently because they do not conform to an existing position.


1. Why would is be different?
2. The conclusion isn't that "a majority of British muslims essentially hate homosexuals". It is that 52% think that homosexuality should be illegal. Not the same thing.

I doubt you are following the thread and the discussions IRL. People disagree with you and believe that a majority of Muslims hate homosexuality.

Also, I prefer a larger sample size.
Original post by Wired_1800
.

Can I assume, given your deliberate evasion of my perfectly reasonable question, that you have read either none or very little of the Islamic scriptures?
Reply 390
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QE2
20
Original post by Wired_1800
The sample size is to small, in my opinion, to arrive at such conclusions.

And yet, your "opinion" is at odds with accepted statistical methodology.

Like I wrote to the other poster, we can take a sample of 1,000 people living in London and take another sample of 1,000 people living in Swindon and arrive at different conclusions on how conservative or liberal British people are. For one, a bias could be the liberal leaning of the Londoners, which is well-established.

So you believe that which part of the UK a Muslim lives in will determine how homophobic they are? So, where do most of the Muslim homophobes live, and where do the moderates live? And how do you know that the survey wasn't conducted exclusively in the moderate area? According to your logic, the actual percentage wanting homosexuality criminalised could be much higher!
Original post by Good bloke
Can I assume, given your deliberate evasion of my perfectly reasonable question, that you have read either none or very little of the Islamic scriptures?

I have read some of the Quran, Bible and Hadith.
Original post by Wired_1800
I have read some of the Quran, Bible and Hadith.

Some? What does that mean? 1%? 5%? 10%?
Original post by QE2
And yet, your "opinion" is at odds with accepted statistical methodology.


So you believe that which part of the UK a Muslim lives in will determine how homophobic they are? So, where do most of the Muslim homophobes live, and where do the moderates live? And how do you know that the survey wasn't conducted exclusively in the moderate area? According to your logic, the actual percentage wanting homosexuality criminalised could be much higher!

We have seen the sampling methodology.

Your question is a bit funny. Obviously, we know that different parts of the UK do not have homogenous views. For example, London and Brighton are known to be relatively more liberal than say Surrey. As a result, selecting people from areas might be influenced by their social views.
Original post by Good bloke
Some? What does that mean? 1%? 5%? 10%?


I would say about 45%, but scanned through more than that. How much have you read? I dont mean how much have you been fed by the EDL or far right?
Reply 395
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QE2
20
Original post by Wired_1800
https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Survey-of-Muslims_Sampling-approach.pdf

Here is the sampling approach that they used for their “random” allocation. Don't tell me that you agree with it? It has only 1 city in Wales and Scotland and 0 city in Northern Ireland covered. Also there was strong leaning towards certain parts of England.

There are only around 40,000 Muslims living in Wales. More than half of those live in Cardiff.
In what way was only conducting the survey in Cardiff "flawed"? Do you think the Muslims of Swansea and Newport hold significantly different views to the Muslims of Cardiff? If so, on what do you base that claim? If not, then why are you claiming that the methodology is flawed?
Reply 396
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QE2
20
Original post by Wired_1800
You don't know me, yet you jump to unnecessary conclusions. I am a healthy skeptic of David Attenborough and Brian Cox. For climate change, I have actually sought supporting documentation from “reputable” sources like IPCC, USGS, UK Agencies and UN Agencies. I tried to read them myself, than blindly following stuff like it is gospel.

You are a "healthy sceptic of Brian Cox". What does that even mean? You assume that he is lying until his statements are independently corroborated? But you will obviously be a "healthy sceptic" of those corroborative sources as well. Where does it end?
When you find something that you agree with, I suspect.
Original post by QE2
You are a "healthy sceptic of Brian Cox". What does that even mean? You assume that he is lying until his statements are independently corroborated? But you will obviously be a "healthy sceptic" of those corroborative sources as well. Where does it end?
When you find something that you agree with, I suspect.

You don't seem to understand how scientific research works, do you? Scientific hypothesis or claims are independently corroborated by a researcher or group of researchers before they are supported by the community.

I remain a sceptic of any information received. I don't just blindly support everything.
Reply 398
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QE2
20
Original post by TheProphetsPath
I feel an equally or more strongly about people mistreating their parents than homosexuality.

I don't see the connection.
Also, what if the parents are mushrik or murtad? What is the Islamic position on that? Remember that Allah forbade Muhammad from asking forgiveness for his mother.
Original post by QE2
There are only around 40,000 Muslims living in Wales. More than half of those live in Cardiff.
In what way was only conducting the survey in Cardiff "flawed"? Do you think the Muslims of Swansea and Newport hold significantly different views to the Muslims of Cardiff? If so, on what do you base that claim? If not, then why are you claiming that the methodology is flawed?

On the basis of local social norms and prejudices. Muslims are not a homogenous group, just like how christians are not a homogenous group.

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