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Original post by Good bloke
Of course you are being evasive. After being told by you that these things might be reasonable in the right context I have asked you in what context these things would be reasonable. Islamic teaching is irrelevant to what is right or justified - you are not a Moslem. How does it take years of study to tell me that you approve of capital punishment for apostasy in such and such circumstances? What would you study? The inside of your eyelids?

I can tell you that I cannot think of any context whatever that these measures would be justifiable to me; they are inhumane in the extreme. I merely seek to know how you can justify them.

Those are your views and I respect that you have the freedom to speak freely about your views.

Unfortunately, I am unable to do justice to your line of questioning because I am not an Islamic scholar with years of in-depth study and reflection. I am not being evasive. This is the simple fact of the matter. I don't want us to venture down the road of idle chatter on religious texts whether it is in the Quran, Torah or Bible.
Original post by SaraS786
Islam encouraged the freeing of slaves and the Prophet pbuh taught freeing them was a virtuous act.

People were mostly kept captive when they attempted to attack the Muslims / the country, so instead of brutally murdering them as others would have, they were kept and provided with basic needs such as food, water etc and they were taught by the Prophet to treat slaves with compassion and as humans with dignity and rights. They were also ordered to free the slaves if they surrendered and were no longer a threat. Sounds merciful to me, when the attackers could have been easily killed in 'defence'.

Regarding killing someone for changing their views, Muhammad pbuh never killed nor ordered the killing of someone for merely changing their religion. It was only when they came out publicly in treason or attack against the Muslims that they were killed.

This is nonsense. The Arab slave traders captured as many slaves over a longer period than the Atlantic slave traders, and people from as far afield as Iceland were captured. They were not attacking the Moslems, were they? You should not listen so gullibly to your imam.
Original post by RogerOxon
So they wouldn't "know", they'd just have a, in your opinion, more researched view.

The claim is that a god communicated the Quran, but doesn't want to send anything more, even when they many ignoring, or disagreeing on its meaning. It sounds like they're bored of us.

I have no view on this comment.
Original post by Wired_1800
Those are your views and I respect that you have the freedom to speak freely about your views.

Unfortunately, I am unable to do justice to your line of questioning because I am not an Islamic scholar with years of in-depth study and reflection. I am not being evasive. This is the simple fact of the matter. I don't want us to venture down the road of idle chatter on religious texts whether it is in the Quran, Torah or Bible.

I repeat, I am asking for your view as a non-Moslem. I am not asking what you think Moslems think, and what you think is uninflenced by Islamic doctrine as you are not a Moslem. Why do you keep wittering about Islamic scholars and the scriptures?
Original post by Wired_1800
Because they would be better placed to be knowledge on the subject based on their years of study and reflection.

This is like how they used to say mass in Latin even though nobody other than priests actually spoke it.Its to keep you ignorant.They claim it's impossible for anybody but religious scholars to understand,but its not so.
Anybody can understand it.I would suggest that if somebody were going to spend their whole life following a religion then they should understand it and actually research it.
Original post by James2312
This is like how they used to say mass in Latin even though nobody other than priests actually spoke it.Its to keep you ignorant.They claim it's impossible for anybody but religious scholars to understand,but its not so.
Anybody can understand it.I would suggest that if somebody were going to spend their whole life following a religion then they should understand it and actually research it.

That is a fair point. However, most of the original texts are based on ancient languages that need to be understood with the associated contexts. Joe Bloggs cannot just assume that they understand the deeper meaning of texts that centuries old.
Original post by Good bloke
I repeat, I am asking for your view as a non-Moslem. I am not asking what you think Moslems think, and what you think is uninflenced by Islamic doctrine as you are not a Moslem. Why do you keep wittering about Islamic scholars and the scriptures?

I keep “wittering” on them because they are the learned scholars. You have to give respect to those regarded as experts.
Original post by Wired_1800
I keep “wittering” on them because they are the learned scholars. You have to give respect to those regarded as experts.

They are not experts on why you think these punishments can be justified in certain contexts, as you have said they can, and what those contexts are. Only you know that.
Original post by Good bloke
This is nonsense. The Arab slave traders captured as many slaves over a longer period than the Atlantic slave traders, and people from as far afield as Iceland were captured. They were not attacking the Moslems, were they? You should not listen so gullibly to your imam.

This is history and the context which you asked for, but clearly you are ignorant on the matter. Also, thought you would know this by now but Arabs are not the same as Muslims.
Original post by SaraS786
This is history and the context which you asked for, but clearly you are ignorant on the matter. Also, thought you would know this by now but Arabs are not the same as Muslims.

Almost all Arabs are Moslems. Are you going to claim that all the slave traders and owners were non-Moslems? We know that is ridiculous.
Original post by Good bloke
They are not experts on why you think these punishments can be justified in certain contexts, as you have said they can, and what those contexts are. Only you know that.

Like I said, I cannot do justice to your line of questioning.
Original post by Good bloke
Almost all Arabs are Moslems. Are you going to claim that all the slave traders and owners were non-Moslems? We know that is ridiculous.

We are talking centuries back, where many Arabs would have been pagans or other, which you are confusing with the current situation. Are you going to claim all Arabs were Muslim? we know that is ridiculous. In any case, my point still stands true. Better luck next time.
Original post by James2312
This is like how they used to say mass in Latin even though nobody other than priests actually spoke it.Its to keep you ignorant.They claim it's impossible for anybody but religious scholars to understand,but its not so.
Anybody can understand it.I would suggest that if somebody were going to spend their whole life following a religion then they should understand it and actually research it.

Nonsense. Yes, anybody could have the capability to understand it, but comparing the knowledge of an average person (on religious matters) to a scholar who has dedicated most of their life and career to studying of scriptures is ridiculous.
Original post by Wired_1800
Like I said, I cannot do justice to your line of questioning.

From this farrago I conclude that you are, in fact, a Moslem who has claimed not to be so that you can defend Islam while appearing to be a reasonable and open-minded non-Moslem.

If you are unable to opine on such a simple matter as in what circumstances it is reasonable that people should be punished for apostasy, adultery or homosexuality without consulting an Islamic scholar it shows how fearful you are of saying something that contradicts Islam (which, if you are non-Moslem, is irrelevant to the discussion of your personal views).
Original post by SaraS786
We are talking centuries back, where many Arabs would have been pagans or other, which you are confusing with the current situation.

We are discussing the situation pertaining after the time of Mohammed when Moslem Arabs and north Africans (from Islamic states) were engaged in slave-hunting expeditions throughout the Mediterranean region and into the north Atlantic, seeking slaves for the courts of Islamic ruilers.
I see my thread title has been changed.

I concede that little black niqab was inaccurate. Baggy and ill-fitting would be more appropriate.
Reply 516
Original post by Good bloke
From this farrago I conclude that you are, in fact, a Moslem who has claimed not to be so that you can defend Islam while appearing to be a reasonable and open-minded non-Moslem.

If you are unable to opine on such a simple matter as in what circumstances it is reasonable that people should be punished for apostasy, adultery or homosexuality without consulting an Islamic scholar it shows how fearful you are of saying something that contradicts Islam (which, if you are non-Moslem, is irrelevant to the discussion of your personal views).


lo and behold, this is how most Muslims function. Dont fall for their mental gymnastics. Too scared to have an actual opinion without initial confirmation from a scholar. Imagine believing that it's okay to punish apostates, adulterers and homosexuals, so long as 'certain conditions are met'.
Original post by Good bloke
We are discussing the situation pertaining after the time of Mohammed when Moslem Arabs and north Africans (from Islamic states) were engaged in slave-hunting expeditions throughout the Mediterranean region and into the north Atlantic, seeking slaves for the courts of Islamic ruilers.

You originally asked for contexts behind certain rulings in Islam, which is reasonable and I answered you to the best of my knowledge. But it seems like you are asking for justification for actions of a certain group of people who you claim to be Muslim, which is nonsense. No one can help you on that. Once again, Arabs are not same as Muslims, and Muslims are not the same as Islam.
Original post by SaraS786
Nonsense. Yes, anybody could have the capability to understand it, but comparing the knowledge of an average person (on religious matters) to a scholar who has dedicated most of their life and career to studying of scriptures is ridiculous.

Why's it ridiculous? They are stories about a man who lived 1400 years ago and his messages.Its not theoretical Astrophysics.Its perfectly possible for someone to have a good understanding of the Qur'an without decades of study.All you'd need is a good English translation.
Original post by SaraS786
You originally asked for contexts behind certain rulings in Islam, which is reasonable and I answered you to the best of my knowledge. But it seems like you are asking for justification for actions of a certain group of people who you claim to be Muslim, which is nonsense. No one can help you on that. Once again, Arabs are not same as Muslims, and Muslims are not the same as Islam.


The Arab slave trade was also called Islamic slave trade for a reason.

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