Parliament must reject the latest Boris 'deal' proposal and call for a 2nd referendum

You are quite right. We had the opportunity to work anywhere in Europe from holiday rep or chalet host to grape pickers and more besides. To say nothing of all those people who have bought houses in Europe and live / commute. All closed off now. 20 years ago, the world was getting bigger. Now, with war and patriotism it is getting smaller and people are becoming ibward looking. Brexit is a gigantic screw you to the rest of the world.

You are quite right. We had the opportunity to work anywhere in Europe from holiday rep or chalet host to grape pickers and more besides. To say nothing of all those people who have bought houses in Europe and live / commute. All closed off now. 20 years ago, the world was getting bigger. Now, with war and patriotism it is getting smaller and people are becoming inward looking forgetting how much they depend others whilst vilifying those they depend on. Brexit is a gigantic screw you to the rest of the world.

Utter nonsense, nobody is closing off anything by not wishing to be part of a political union!

What total nonsense

The deal that Boris and the Irish PM, Leo Varadkar, are now working on clearly indicates that the UK will leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union, leaving only Northern Ireland suspended temporarily in some sort of 'in/out' limbo acceptable to the DUP and Dublin.

Yet this deal, if passed, will wreck the UK economy.

Car manufacturers will leave in droves - only today, Nissan have warned in the strongest terms that the tariffs of 10% to be imposed by the EU on UK-made vehicles will make being in the UK unviable. This is almost a million jobs.

Food supplies and numerous other industries will be disrupted, as their current production models rely on smooth border flows, that will no longer exist cross-channel.

There will be massive extra burdens of bureaucracy on UK exporters, causing many to withdraw from exporting and adding to our balance of payments deficit.

The pound will plunge to new lows, causing inflation on both food and non-food items. The era of things like cheap imported computers, phones and other electronics will have ended.

The UK will not be able to call on large numbers of European workers who sustain the ordinary work of our economy and make the UK viable, doing all the many jobs that British people don't want to do.

It will be terrible.

This is OUR government planning to do this to OUR country.

Absolutely incredible and purely because a small, highly ideological, extremist faction have taken control of the Tory Party and are being served by their supine liar-in-chief with what they want to hear.

It will be a patriotic act for all existing MPs to vote this down.

We shall then see if Boris Johnson and the Tory extremist ERG are actual democrats, or not.

You are quite right. We had the opportunity to work anywhere in Europe from holiday rep or chalet host to grape pickers and more besides. To say nothing of all those people who have bought houses in Europe and live / commute. All closed off now. 20 years ago, the world was getting bigger. Now, with war and patriotism it is getting smaller and people are becoming inward looking forgetting how much they depend others whilst vilifying those they depend on. Brexit is a gigantic screw you to the rest of the world.

Oh ok. So next year I will be able to work in France? Or will I have to go through lengthy application of work visas that make the whole thing more trouble than it is worth?

You do realise the same people said exactly the same things when the UK was deciding whether to join the Euro or not?

If the referendum result becomes legally binding (Parliament can ensure that happens), then it won't matter what any eventual government may want because it will have been enshrined in law, so there'd be nothing for the government or parliament to contemplate over, and no need to spend any more parliamentary time on it. It doesn't matter what the government wants or doesn't want because the decision will not be theirs to take; they will simply be the executors of the instruction whether they like it or not (I would imagine there would be a fairly clear-cut legal case in the supreme court for any government which decided not to comply).

I think the real problem with the first referendum was that the Leave outcome simply had no proposals behind it whatsoever with respect to what leaving really meant, aside from a fairly weakly-defined plan about the UK joining EFTA proposed by the official leave campaign.

The big difference would be a stamped, sealed, legally-binding document (which already exists - mostly, Theresa May's deal, plus whatever amendments that Boris can negotiate). This along with making it legally-binding pretty much removes any further scope for political deadlock because I would think that no government would be able to overturn it (Obviously I don't know for sure, since I'm not a legal expert, but I cannot imagine the UK Supreme court allowing a government to ignore a legally-binding referendum result).

The problem is really nothing to do with what the government or parliament wants, or even the fact that people voted leave, it's the fact that that the Leave outcome was so poorly defined that the Tory Government has used it as an excuse to reinterpret it in any way it pleases and has been trying to tell people that whatever they decide is "what people voted for" -- this (IMHO) is totally unacceptable and a totally undemocratic abuse of power by the executive.


No it doesn't provide a clear mandate at all. A general election only decides who our representatives are in parliament, but David Cameron took the decision away from parliament and put it to a direct vote instead.

The entire premise of leaving is predicated on the fact that a statistical majority of people in the country voted in favour of leaving, albeit without defining what leaving means. The only democratic way to be able to know whether a statistical majority of people still support the concept of leaving (now that leaving is clearly defined), is to have another ballot with essentially the same question again, but where both possible outcomes are clearly-defined, unambiguous, legally-binding, and where there's no room for any government or parliament to do anything other than just adhere to the result then move on and put the entire issue to rest.

A general election doesn't do this at all - firstly because an election isn't about a single issue (it's about a great many number of issues - many of which are far more important to most people in the country than the 'Brexit' issue which people are feeling increasingly bored and fed up with). Also because the way our FPTP system works is such that a majority government can be formed with only a minority of the votes - e.g. a government can be voted into power even when that party won less than 40% of the popular vote, which obviously falls a long way short of the statistical majority that would be needed in a referendum.

Then of course there's also the (highly likely) chance that a general election will do about as much to parliamentary arithmetic as rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic. Holding a legally-binding referendum is pretty much the only way to guarantee a definite answer either way, and to sort it out once and for all.

You do realise we buy more the EU than we export to them?
If the EU puts these tariffs in force dont you think the UK will do the same?
This will hit more EU companies than those in the UK, if we leave the EU will not kick themselves and their own businesses in.the teeth like that. There will be an agreement made between the EU and the UK tarrifs.

You do realise we buy more the EU than we export to them?
If the EU puts these tariffs in force dont you think the UK will do the same?
This will hit more EU companies than those in the UK, if we leave the EU will not kick themselves and their own businesses in.the teeth like that. There will be an agreement made between the EU and the UK tarrifs.

This is too simplistic. As a whole the EU is our largest export market. But by country the UK is not the biggest export market for any other EU country. For example Germany exports more to the US and France than us. And as a proportion, the UK only makes up 6.6% of German exports. The same is true of all countries. Each EU country sells more goods around the EU than to the UK. So the loss of the UK market, whilst significant isn't anything as bad as our loss of access to EU markets.

The first half is exactly what leavers thought during the and before the first refernedum - especially when they all recieved a letter through their door promisng that the result would be implimented, and saw parliment vote with a majority respect the outcome before the referendum. They felt like there was no way that if their side won, it wouldn't be carried out...

There are always ways, and there will always be routes for poltiicans to try and get their way. A legally binding refernedum, doesn't stop the goverment having another referendum 2 years later after rejoining.. unless you start to add amendments after amendments to the first, trying to predict exactly what ways leavers could try and overthrow the result.

Do you really trust Boris and Farage to relieved remain? Are you 100% sure that you can legally tie their hands, when they regain control of parliament, in a way that can stop them finding some way around it? If so, your as deluded as leavers who thought that we would trigger article 50 and leave the EU cleanly exactly as people wanted.

The other point I take issue with is the idea that it should be May's deal vs Remain... be honest with yourself, truelly honest. The reason you want that is because you know remain wins. I was a remain voter last time, and will be again this time.. but even I look at that and think 'that's a stitch up'. Its picking a plan that you know leavers hate and won't be motivated to vote for.

The issue with a second referendum is that (and again, if your honest.. you know this) it kills any chance at ever finding a better deal. As soon as the EU knows there will be a rerefernedum, any motivation for them to give us a better deal dies. It is 100% in their interest to keep the referendum between Mays deal and Remain, and given that the result would be binding, there is no negotiation for a better deal after, so as soon as you call the referendum you kill any chance at every getting anything better than May's deal. Again, you know this, and you know it would help remain win.

An election on the other hand gives us the best of either outcome:

Either the remain aliance wins a majority and can force revocation of article 50 through the house, and then see out 5 years of recovery/stability as they prove we are better in the EU

It was a typical right-wing reactionary response to the financial crisis of 2008 and stagnating or declining real incomes. The left didn't respond clearly enough and it was easy for Farage and the rest of the toxic manipulators acting on behalf of a small group of global financiers to play on racist and xenophobic fears and cash in big. Now we are going to see the consequences - the many working people in post-industrial areas who voted for Brexit are going to experience even more economic depression. The only people who will benefit will be a tiny group of thieving hedge funds and vulture capitalists, many of them in places like Russia.

We don’t lose access to the market

I'm sure you'd say that about any questions.

Clearly, the point of a second referendum is to offer all those many voters who have now seen what the sort of Brexit that Tory and Brexit Party extremists want will really mean to reconsider.

It was a typical right-wing reactionary response to the financial crisis of 2008 and stagnating or declining real incomes.

The left didn't respond clearly enough and it was easy for Farage and the rest of the toxic manipulators (emphasis mine) acting on behalf of a small group of global financiers (ditto) to play on racist and xenophobic fears and cash in big.

Now we are going to see the consequences - the many working people in post-industrial areas who voted for Brexit are going to experience even more economic depression.

The only people who will benefit will be a tiny group of thieving hedge funds and vulture capitalists, many of them in places like Russia.

Er... @Burton Bridge is a lefty and not a ”right-wing reactionary”?

you are not wrong, you dont get much more left than me legally anyway.

@Fullofsurprises in as nicer possible way, I'd love to know why have I been manipulated, why was my arguement right wing, not in a nasty way I'm just genuinely interested in why you think such?

I'm not sure why you think I was talking about you, I was referring to the ways in which working class people are persuaded by extremely right wing forces to vote for things which are self-harming to those voters. The Tory Party never comes to office without such voters. You don't sound like one of them, but it is self-harming for many in the North and Midlands to support a Leave that consists of leaving the single market and customs union, because those things will have a severely detrimental effect on the bedrock industries of those regions and on employment and affluence across the board.