Girls sue to block participation of transgender athletes
The families of three female high school runners filed a federal lawsuit Wednesday seeking to block transgender athletes in Connecticut from participating in girls sports.
Selina Soule, a senior at Glastonbury High School, Chelsea Mitchell, a senior at Canton High School and Alanna Smith, a sophomore at Danbury High School are represented by the conservative nonprofit organization Alliance Defending Freedom. They argue that allowing athletes with male anatomy to compete has deprived them of track titles and scholarship opportunities.
“Mentally and physically, we know the outcome before the race even starts,” said Smith, who is the daughter of former Major League pitcher Lee Smith. “That biological unfairness doesn’t go away because of what someone believes about gender identity. All girls deserve the chance to compete on a level playing field.”
The three plaintiffs have competed directly against them [two transgender students], almost always losing to Miller and usually behind Yearwood. Mitchel [a plaintiff]l finished third in the 2019 state championship in the girls 55-meter indoor track competition behind Miller and Yearwood.
“Our dream is not to come in second or third place, but to win fair and square,” Mitchell said. “All we’re asking for is a fair chance.”
https://apnews.com/8fd300537131153cc44e0cf2ade3244b
They contradict themselves. "All girls deserve the chance to compete" while wanting to ban some girls from competing.
Selina Soule, a senior at Glastonbury High School, Chelsea Mitchell, a senior at Canton High School and Alanna Smith, a sophomore at Danbury High School are represented by the conservative nonprofit organization Alliance Defending Freedom. They argue that allowing athletes with male anatomy to compete has deprived them of track titles and scholarship opportunities.
“Mentally and physically, we know the outcome before the race even starts,” said Smith, who is the daughter of former Major League pitcher Lee Smith. “That biological unfairness doesn’t go away because of what someone believes about gender identity. All girls deserve the chance to compete on a level playing field.”
The three plaintiffs have competed directly against them [two transgender students], almost always losing to Miller and usually behind Yearwood. Mitchel [a plaintiff]l finished third in the 2019 state championship in the girls 55-meter indoor track competition behind Miller and Yearwood.
“Our dream is not to come in second or third place, but to win fair and square,” Mitchell said. “All we’re asking for is a fair chance.”
https://apnews.com/8fd300537131153cc44e0cf2ade3244b
They contradict themselves. "All girls deserve the chance to compete" while wanting to ban some girls from competing.
(edited 4 years ago)
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Original post by AngeryPenguin
The families of three female high school runners filed a federal lawsuit Wednesday seeking to block transgender athletes in Connecticut from participating in girls sports.
Selina Soule, a senior at Glastonbury High School, Chelsea Mitchell, a senior at Canton High School and Alanna Smith, a sophomore at Danbury High School are represented by the conservative nonprofit organization Alliance Defending Freedom. They argue that allowing athletes with male anatomy to compete has deprived them of track titles and scholarship opportunities.
“Mentally and physically, we know the outcome before the race even starts,” said Smith, who is the daughter of former Major League pitcher Lee Smith. “That biological unfairness doesn’t go away because of what someone believes about gender identity. All girls deserve the chance to compete on a level playing field.”
https://apnews.com/8fd300537131153cc44e0cf2ade3244b
They contradict themselves. "All girls deserve the chance to compete" while wanting to ban some girls from competing.
Selina Soule, a senior at Glastonbury High School, Chelsea Mitchell, a senior at Canton High School and Alanna Smith, a sophomore at Danbury High School are represented by the conservative nonprofit organization Alliance Defending Freedom. They argue that allowing athletes with male anatomy to compete has deprived them of track titles and scholarship opportunities.
“Mentally and physically, we know the outcome before the race even starts,” said Smith, who is the daughter of former Major League pitcher Lee Smith. “That biological unfairness doesn’t go away because of what someone believes about gender identity. All girls deserve the chance to compete on a level playing field.”
https://apnews.com/8fd300537131153cc44e0cf2ade3244b
They contradict themselves. "All girls deserve the chance to compete" while wanting to ban some girls from competing.
Trans women may say they are women but biologically they are still very much male. In the interest of fairness they should compete with men. But that would probably be labelled transphobic so alternatively they should have their own competition.
Original post by AngeryPenguin
They contradict themselves. "All girls deserve the chance to compete" while wanting to ban some girls from competing.
They contradict themselves. "All girls deserve the chance to compete" while wanting to ban some girls from competing.
Not really, they don't want men competing. This isnt a hard concept to grasp. Plus, i rather doubt your bosses in China take a particularly rosey view on 'trans rights'
Original post by Napp
Not really, they don't want men competing. This isnt a hard concept to grasp. Plus, i rather doubt your bosses in China take a particularly rosey view on 'trans rights'
What are you talking about? China is clearly the most enlightened and advanced country in the world.
Original post by YaliaV
What are you talking about? China is clearly the most enlightened and advanced country in the world.
I beg a thousand apologies for that most egregious slip of the tongue. My puny western mind didnt know what it was saying.
I just don't know how the trans atheletes don't feel shame.
I mean, I have been in their shoes.. I get their perspective, and its really tough for them to not be able to be abale to live and compete in the way they feel is natural/right for them..
But equally back when i was in their possition, I felt really shameful and embarassed when I thought of things like this. I played casual sport and physical things with girls.. including rock climbing. I could go to a route that a lot of girls were struggling with, and do it.. but I would never then feel good about being the only girl who did it, or bragged or put myself in that catagory of 'girl' when it came to sporting/athletic things.. because I was huge compared to them, much stronger, and it was so blatently unfair that to be proud of winning would have made me feel ashamed. Its like a teenager winning a race against kids and then celebrating.. so what? You beat someone that you have a biological advantage over? good for you..
I think in this case, trans people will need to accept that there is no easy solution, and just not participating in competitive/professional level sport is probably the best thing. no one has a right to compete.. there are many people who would love to, but can't because of a whole variety of reasons. Trans is just one of those reasons for me. Unless the trans women want to compete with men - in which case go for it. They will be at a disadvantage due to their lower testosterone level.. but that should help them to understand what the girls they are now competing against feel like.
I mean, I have been in their shoes.. I get their perspective, and its really tough for them to not be able to be abale to live and compete in the way they feel is natural/right for them..
But equally back when i was in their possition, I felt really shameful and embarassed when I thought of things like this. I played casual sport and physical things with girls.. including rock climbing. I could go to a route that a lot of girls were struggling with, and do it.. but I would never then feel good about being the only girl who did it, or bragged or put myself in that catagory of 'girl' when it came to sporting/athletic things.. because I was huge compared to them, much stronger, and it was so blatently unfair that to be proud of winning would have made me feel ashamed. Its like a teenager winning a race against kids and then celebrating.. so what? You beat someone that you have a biological advantage over? good for you..
I think in this case, trans people will need to accept that there is no easy solution, and just not participating in competitive/professional level sport is probably the best thing. no one has a right to compete.. there are many people who would love to, but can't because of a whole variety of reasons. Trans is just one of those reasons for me. Unless the trans women want to compete with men - in which case go for it. They will be at a disadvantage due to their lower testosterone level.. but that should help them to understand what the girls they are now competing against feel like.
Original post by AngeryPenguin
. “That biological unfairness doesn’t go away because of what someone believes about gender identity.
Sure would be a shame if someone had studied this and started to determine that it certainly seems to. Like, I get that the study is far from conclusive, not many participants and needs building on, but the initial evidence is that post transition, any "biological advantage" isn't preserved.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
Sure would be a shame if someone had studied this and started to determine that it certainly seems to. Like, I get that the study is far from conclusive, not many participants and needs building on, but the initial evidence is that post transition, any "biological advantage" isn't preserved.
"It should be noted that this conclusion only applies to distance running and the author makes no claims as to the equality of performances, pre and post gender transition, in any other sport"
Original post by Johnny Tightlips
Trans women may say they are women but biologically they are still very much male. In the interest of fairness they should compete with men. But that would probably be labelled transphobic so alternatively they should have their own competition.
Once a transgender woman has started taking HRT, she loses her testosterone advantage very, very quickly. Trans women that are a significant way into their transition do not have a biological advantage over cis women, and would be severely disadvantaged if they were to compete against cis men. Besides, where would we draw the line? Should we start stopping intersex women and cis women with naturally high testosterone levels (hint: that includes many, many cis female athletes) from competing? Anybody with half a brain can see that that would be discriminatory, so why discriminate against women that used to have a testosterone advantage, but gave that up?
I strongly recommend anyone who thinks trans women still have an advantage post-transition read this article (https://www.shape.com/lifestyle/mind-and-body/how-does-transitioning-affect-transgender-athletes-sports-performance - I like this article because it's quite balanced, looks at both sides of the argument, and considers both the testimony of trans athletes and medical professionals) or one of the many others showing that it simply isn't true. Besides, the International Olympic Committee allows transgender athletes to compete against their true gender providing they've transitioned- do you really think you know better than them?
I don't get the biological unfairness argument.
You could have a girl who is 4ft10 and naturally puts on weight easily with short legs.
You can also have a 5ft11 girl with long legs and skinny.
Both are 15 so it's ' fair' that they both compete against each other racing.
I have no dog in this fight but there are many more examples like this that just baffle me
Basically my argument is school sports have never been fair.
You could have a girl who is 4ft10 and naturally puts on weight easily with short legs.
You can also have a 5ft11 girl with long legs and skinny.
Both are 15 so it's ' fair' that they both compete against each other racing.
I have no dog in this fight but there are many more examples like this that just baffle me
Basically my argument is school sports have never been fair.
Original post by eeiiiiio
"It should be noted that this conclusion only applies to distance running and the author makes no claims as to the equality of performances, pre and post gender transition, in any other sport"
And given the OP is referring specifically to track running, it remains relevant
Original post by pikipek
Besides, the International Olympic Committee allows transgender athletes to compete against their true gender providing they've transitioned- do you really think you know better than them?
There are many biological advantages that you get from not transitioning until after puberty. E.g densier bones, naturally taller.
To say that they have no advantage is wrong. It's not all about testosterone.
And the Olympic committee only care about testosterone. Which is why they have barred naturally born women with high testosterone from competing before. Which is just as stupid.
Original post by adam271
There are many biological advantages that you get from not transitioning until after puberty. E.g densier bones, naturally taller.
To say that they have no advantage is wrong. It's not all about testosterone.
And the Olympic committee only care about testosterone. Which is why they have barred naturally born women with high testosterone from competing before. Which is just as stupid.
To say that they have no advantage is wrong. It's not all about testosterone.
And the Olympic committee only care about testosterone. Which is why they have barred naturally born women with high testosterone from competing before. Which is just as stupid.
Good point! That is actually something mentioned in the article I linked, it's well worth a read. It is very true that trans women may (the key word being may) have other advantages that won't go away after transitioning. However, the fact of the matter is that cis women could have these advantages too, and trans women may not, so it's unfair to force trans women to compete with men. Nobody's out there measuring the bone density, limb length, or individual heights of cis women to deem whether or not they should be allowed to compete in high school sports- that would be absurd. For example, my school has a (very casual) all women basketball team. My transgender friend (who's 5"7, so a bit taller than average for a woman but shorter than average for a man) was forced to join the mens team. Meanwhile, my cis classmate (who has thyroid issues) and so is 6"7 is a treasured member of the team, since her biological advantage has helped the team win many matches. Is that fair? Should we start excluding all women with natural advantages?
The way I see it is this: trans women may, or may not, have advantages over some cis women post-transition. But all cis men will have an advantage over transgender women. Very, very few women would be able to succeed in male competitive sports (and I say this as a cis woman). If you wouldn't force a 6"7 woman to join a men's team, why force a 5"7 woman who happened to be born male?
Original post by adam271
I don't get the biological unfairness argument.
You could have a girl who is 4ft10 and naturally puts on weight easily with short legs.
You can also have a 5ft11 girl with long legs and skinny.
Both are 15 so it's ' fair' that they both compete against each other racing.
I have no dog in this fight but there are many more examples like this that just baffle me
Basically my argument is school sports have never been fair.
You could have a girl who is 4ft10 and naturally puts on weight easily with short legs.
You can also have a 5ft11 girl with long legs and skinny.
Both are 15 so it's ' fair' that they both compete against each other racing.
I have no dog in this fight but there are many more examples like this that just baffle me
Basically my argument is school sports have never been fair.
This is my opinion, too.
If people are concerned about 'fairness', sex division in sports is a lot more arbitrary than a specific tier system for a specific sport, regardless of sex or 'race'.
Original post by Ascend
This is my opinion, too.
If people are concerned about 'fairness', sex division in sports is a lot more arbitrary than a specific tier system for a specific sport, regardless of sex or 'race'.
If people are concerned about 'fairness', sex division in sports is a lot more arbitrary than a specific tier system for a specific sport, regardless of sex or 'race'.
Racing only consists of the fastests runners, there's no class systems like in boxing. You're either fast or you're not. The people that do running, are the fastest women that they have. However, a normal fast athlete man (not even the best) could be on par or even beat the fastest woman they have.
Original post by ibyghee
Racing only consists of the fastests runners, there's no class systems like in boxing. You're either fast or you're not.
You say that and then go on to falsify it by acknowledging a male/female division.
Original post by ibyghee
You're either fast or you're not.
[ltr]This is also meaningless. It's like saying "you either can punch or you can't" for boxing.[/ltr]
Original post by adam271
I don't get the biological unfairness argument.
You could have a girl who is 4ft10 and naturally puts on weight easily with short legs.
You can also have a 5ft11 girl with long legs and skinny.
Both are 15 so it's ' fair' that they both compete against each other racing.
I have no dog in this fight but there are many more examples like this that just baffle me
Basically my argument is school sports have never been fair.
You could have a girl who is 4ft10 and naturally puts on weight easily with short legs.
You can also have a 5ft11 girl with long legs and skinny.
Both are 15 so it's ' fair' that they both compete against each other racing.
I have no dog in this fight but there are many more examples like this that just baffle me
Basically my argument is school sports have never been fair.
True, but the underlying point is, if you allow biological (almost) male athletes to compete as women, you erase women's sport. The whole point of having the women's versions is because they wouldn't qualify as the top 10% in any sport.
The longer term effects of discouraging girls from forming healthy habits when young isn't good either.
Original post by Ascend
You say that and then go on to falsify it by acknowledging a male/female division.
What I'm trying to say is, if the fastest runners were the only ones allowed in a race. They would all be men. So to make it fair, just seperate it.
Original post by Ascend
This is my opinion, too.
If people are concerned about 'fairness', sex division in sports is a lot more arbitrary than a specific tier system for a specific sport, regardless of sex or 'race'.
If people are concerned about 'fairness', sex division in sports is a lot more arbitrary than a specific tier system for a specific sport, regardless of sex or 'race'.
How many tiers would you have? Men and women is an obvious enough distinction for most, and pretty easy to manage as well until you get various overly publicised, ignorant lobbyists involved.
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