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No, when I worked at a GP surgery, they had very different roles.
The ANPs' role was far more limited than the GPs' - in too many ways to list.
The ANPs dealt with minor illnesses, like coughs/colds, minor skin complaints like impetigo/warts etc. They would also monitor patients with chronic conditions like asthma, through yearly check-ups. But they didn't deal with anything more serious than that.
The ANPs' role was far more limited than the GPs' - in too many ways to list.
The ANPs dealt with minor illnesses, like coughs/colds, minor skin complaints like impetigo/warts etc. They would also monitor patients with chronic conditions like asthma, through yearly check-ups. But they didn't deal with anything more serious than that.
Maybe it’s different for practice nurses and hospital nurses?
What ANPs do very much dependon on where they are working I have worked in paediatric units where some ANPs were on the reg rota and could do anything a reg could do. However, they were limited to their specialty (neonates or paeds) and could not cross cover, whereas the paeds trainees were able to work in both specialties due to their training being more broad.
In adult medicine, the ANPs I have worked with have had very different roles in different places and whilst they had highly specialist knowledge in some areas (e.g on neurosurgery, they ran baclofen clinics and were trained in giving intrathecal injections - a highly specialist skill), they could not do something as simple as read an ECG because it was not their area of expertise.
So to answer your question, doctors' training provides them with a much broader base of knowledge and skills, whereas ANPs have a great depth of knowledge and skills in their area of expertise but they do not have aba of knowledge.
In adult medicine, the ANPs I have worked with have had very different roles in different places and whilst they had highly specialist knowledge in some areas (e.g on neurosurgery, they ran baclofen clinics and were trained in giving intrathecal injections - a highly specialist skill), they could not do something as simple as read an ECG because it was not their area of expertise.
So to answer your question, doctors' training provides them with a much broader base of knowledge and skills, whereas ANPs have a great depth of knowledge and skills in their area of expertise but they do not have aba of knowledge.
Original post by Anonymous
What ANPs do very much dependon on where they are working I have worked in paediatric units where some ANPs were on the reg rota and could do anything a reg could do. However, they were limited to their specialty (neonates or paeds) and could not cross cover, whereas the paeds trainees were able to work in both specialties due to their training being more broad.
In adult medicine, the ANPs I have worked with have had very different roles in different places and whilst they had highly specialist knowledge in some areas (e.g on neurosurgery, they ran baclofen clinics and were trained in giving intrathecal injections - a highly specialist skill), they could not do something as simple as read an ECG because it was not their area of expertise.
So to answer your question, doctors' training provides them with a much broader base of knowledge and skills, whereas ANPs have a great depth of knowledge and skills in their area of expertise but they do not have aba of knowledge.
In adult medicine, the ANPs I have worked with have had very different roles in different places and whilst they had highly specialist knowledge in some areas (e.g on neurosurgery, they ran baclofen clinics and were trained in giving intrathecal injections - a highly specialist skill), they could not do something as simple as read an ECG because it was not their area of expertise.
So to answer your question, doctors' training provides them with a much broader base of knowledge and skills, whereas ANPs have a great depth of knowledge and skills in their area of expertise but they do not have aba of knowledge.
*do not have the breadth of knowledge
Yes, but their role was limited to:
- For asthma: discussing with the patient whether they feel their asthma is under control, reviewing their inhalers/meds
- For diabetes: discussing blood results with patient, advising on lifestyle
If there were any particularly worrying developments, these would be passed to a GP.
Additionally, their role here was solely in annual monitoring - they wouldn’t ever diagnose these conditions.
It’s absolutely vital work, and it saves the GPs huge amounts of time, freeing up more GP appointments - so I’m not knocking it in any way.
I’m just pointing out that, at least in general practice, ANPs definitely do not do ‘basically the same things as doctors.’
- For asthma: discussing with the patient whether they feel their asthma is under control, reviewing their inhalers/meds
- For diabetes: discussing blood results with patient, advising on lifestyle
If there were any particularly worrying developments, these would be passed to a GP.
Additionally, their role here was solely in annual monitoring - they wouldn’t ever diagnose these conditions.
It’s absolutely vital work, and it saves the GPs huge amounts of time, freeing up more GP appointments - so I’m not knocking it in any way.
I’m just pointing out that, at least in general practice, ANPs definitely do not do ‘basically the same things as doctors.’
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by Anonymous
In adult medicine, the ANPs I have worked with have had very different roles in different places and whilst they had highly specialist knowledge in some areas (e.g on neurosurgery, they ran baclofen clinics and were trained in giving intrathecal injections - a highly specialist skill), they could not do something as simple as read an ECG because it was not their area of expertise.
That's because reading an ECG isn't "simple"
You can train an ANP or non-doctor staff member to complete a procedure or follow a protocol - no argument there.
You can't train them to think outside the box or apply first principles which they haven't ever been taught (and expecting this is obviously unfair). This is what 5+ years of medical school and many years of postgraduate training and exams are for.
This spiel about "doing anything a reg can" is a reductionist fantasy.
Original post by Democracy
That's because reading an ECG isn't "simple"
You can train an ANP or non-doctor staff member to complete a procedure or follow a protocol - no argument there.
You can't train them to think outside the box or apply first principles which they haven't ever been taught (and expecting this is obviously unfair). This is what 5+ years of medical school and many years of postgraduate training and exams are for.
This spiel about "doing anything a reg can" is a reductionist fantasy.
You can train an ANP or non-doctor staff member to complete a procedure or follow a protocol - no argument there.
You can't train them to think outside the box or apply first principles which they haven't ever been taught (and expecting this is obviously unfair). This is what 5+ years of medical school and many years of postgraduate training and exams are for.
This spiel about "doing anything a reg can" is a reductionist fantasy.
To be honest, I have been on the surgery wards for a few weeks now and they basically run the ward. The juniors discuss patients with them, they can also clerk, prescribe everything in the BNF, request investigations etc. I really enjoy having them around because they are keener to teach than the Juniors or Reg lol
There were 3 ANPs at this practice - they all did asthma, two of them did diabetes, one did a COPD clinic and I think one did a CHD clinic. Also, one of them did regular visits to all of the practice’s assigned care homes.
They didn’t deal with mental health at all. That was solely the reserve of GPs.
I don’t know exactly how much training they received, but the check up consultations were very formulaic - they followed a pre-prepared template on the computer system, telling them what questions to ask, to record B.P,, weight, height, BMI etc.
They didn’t deal with mental health at all. That was solely the reserve of GPs.
I don’t know exactly how much training they received, but the check up consultations were very formulaic - they followed a pre-prepared template on the computer system, telling them what questions to ask, to record B.P,, weight, height, BMI etc.
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by Democracy
That's because reading an ECG isn't "simple"
You can train an ANP or non-doctor staff member to complete a procedure or follow a protocol - no argument there.
You can't train them to think outside the box or apply first principles which they haven't ever been taught (and expecting this is obviously unfair). This is what 5+ years of medical school and many years of postgraduate training and exams are for.
This spiel about "doing anything a reg can" is a reductionist fantasy.
You can train an ANP or non-doctor staff member to complete a procedure or follow a protocol - no argument there.
You can't train them to think outside the box or apply first principles which they haven't ever been taught (and expecting this is obviously unfair). This is what 5+ years of medical school and many years of postgraduate training and exams are for.
This spiel about "doing anything a reg can" is a reductionist fantasy.
I dunno, the ANPs on the senior rota I worked with on paeds were pretty damn good (and better than some of the regs). And those ones could interpret ECGs, and X-rays and so on.
Original post by wildstar9
Some are surgical first assistants so they can get involved lol
And by get involved, you mean "hold retractors". A surgical registrar clearly does way more than this when they're alone covering surgery.
The point of being a registrar is that you're learning to be a consultant. An ANP who's not doing this is not "working at reg level". They may be more confident and more experienced than a particular junior doctor at that point in time (possibly due to departmental reasons and not being shunted around every six months), but they are not de facto as competent as all registrars in that specialty. If they're at all sensible they'll be the first to point this out.
Original post by wildstar9
That is true but on the other hand, I'm sure in a medical specialty they literally mirror the tasks of a Reg?
Mate are you high lol? Have you seen what a med reg does at night?
Original post by Democracy
Mate are you high lol? Have you seen what a med reg does at night?
I have not completed my med rotation but from what I can see from surgery, they seem to be running the surgical ward when the consultant isn't there. They disagree and re-write plans by Reg (refusing to give some medications, fluids etc) without consulting them first.
During operations, they can also suture and do other small tasks - so I guess they will never get to the level of reg in a surgical specialty, but medical I think so.
Original post by wildstar9
I have not completed my med rotation but from what I can see from surgery, they seem to be running the surgical ward when the consultant isn't there. They disagree and re-write plans by Reg (refusing to give some medications, fluids etc) without consulting them first.
During operations, they can also suture and do other small tasks - so I guess they will never get to the level of reg in a surgical specialty, but medical I think so.
During operations, they can also suture and do other small tasks - so I guess they will never get to the level of reg in a surgical specialty, but medical I think so.
(Background to my reply, I'm a senior nurse working across site in my hospital, interacting with ANPs and medical/surgical staff of all flavours).
The consultants don't run wards, the nursing staff run them. That's why the senior sister on a ward is often called the ward manager.
ANPs have huge value in clinical practice, but there is no way they hold the same experience, or clinical authority as a specialty registrar. They often have a lot of knowledge around one very narrow area of clinical practice. They can disagree with plans by all means, however there are professional ways and means to go about this, if an ANP were to go round undermining a registrar's plans constantly without discussion it'd cause mayhem. Healthcare is a team based thing, if you're going to alter someone's plan, you should have the professional courtesy to consult them over it.
There's also no way an ANP is equal to a medical registrar, there's a huge difference in the level of responsibility, it's a colossal task and one I do not envy.
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