The Student Room Group

Joe Biden’s First Day Began the End of Girls’ Sports

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Reply 20
Original post by SHallowvale
If the argument is that women's sport is doomed then the frequency of the problem certainly matters.

That wasnt quite the point i was making but either way. Going by the current fad for transitioning, especially within the US, its hard to say its an insignificant number. As the author outlines quite succinctly in her book on the matter, as it happens.
Then again, i can only presume you're in the same mind as QE2 on this that the author is not but an unreconstructed 'transphobe' for airing her opinion on said matter or?
Reply 21
Original post by iNeed2p
This is so wrong in many levels. Now the tag deranged previous president looks to me more of a fit in the office.

Someone else who has not read the actual EO, but just the tight-wing media hysteria.
All Biden has done is sign an order that says existing legislation will be enforced. The EO does not actually say any of the things these reports imply.

Remember the female power lifter who broke four world records by landslide in official power lifting. Her name is Mary Gregory. Before she was he. This alone should say it enough.

Is this the same Mary Gregory who was stripped of her titles because she was not actually a trans woman but still a male (competitive status) who hid her true status from the event organisers?

Men and women never have the same strength in terms of physical ability.

Nonsense. Elite female athletes will generally beat most males.
Reply 22
Original post by DSilva
I just don't believe that many of those who are outraged about this really care about women's sports. Seems more about trying to fight a culture war and exploiting this obviously difficult issue in order to do so.

This is precisely what it is about. The people faux-outraged about this are often also outraged about things like BLM, Antifa, The Left, Remainers, Corbyn, immigration, refugees, foreign aid, etc, etc.
Reply 23
Original post by Napp
Then again, i can only presume you're in the same mind as QE2 on this that the author is not but an unreconstructed 'transphobe' for airing her opinion on said matter or?

"naught but..."
Reply 24
Original post by QE2
"naught but..."

Are you attempting to make some form of point here?
Original post by QE2
This is precisely what it is about. The people faux-outraged about this are often also outraged about things like BLM, Antifa, The Left, Remainers, Corbyn, immigration, refugees, foreign aid, etc, etc.

Pots, kettles etc. etc. :rolleyes:
Although that really is a most amusing, if disparate and eclectic, grouping you've mustered up there.
Reply 25
Original post by QE2
This is precisely what it is about. The people faux-outraged about this are often also outraged about things like BLM, Antifa, The Left, Remainers, Corbyn, immigration, refugees, foreign aid, etc, etc.

They're also the types who complain about women's tennis players earning the same as men's players in grand slams.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but I just am not convinced that the integrity of women's sport is the main concern here.
(edited 3 years ago)
Reply 26
The current women's Long Drive world record is held by a cis-female, with a drive 80 yards longer than Lawless' earlier record.

Mary Gregory,

Stripped of her title for falsely claiming to be female when actually still a male under competition rules.

Rachel Mckinnon

Won the 200m by half a second but came second in the 500m, to a cis-female. Also note that she was in a veteran's category. The winning time for the elite group was faster than McKinnon's.

It seems that every example of trans-women "wiping the floor with" cis-women is just more reactionary nonsense.
(edited 3 years ago)
Reply 27
Original post by QE2
Stripped of her title for falsely claiming to be female when actually still a male under competition rules.

Interesting view to take, weren't you recently going on about trans people being whatever gender they've elected to identify with and this being an immutable fact? Now you're saying that their chosen identify is in fact a falsehood? Very interesting. How do you square these two mutually exclusive views exactly? Or is it simply this particular transgendered person you think is faking it?:holmes:
Original post by Napp
That wasnt quite the point i was making but either way. Going by the current fad for transitioning, especially within the US, its hard to say its an insignificant number. As the author outlines quite succinctly in her book on the matter, as it happens.
Then again, i can only presume you're in the same mind as QE2 on this that the author is not but an unreconstructed 'transphobe' for airing her opinion on said matter or?

If you think there are enough numbers to make this issue significant then by all means provide them. At the moment only about 5 examples have been given in this thread.

I don't care whether the author is a transphobe or not. It has no relevance to the argument.
Makes me laugh this, the main argument these people have against trans kids in school sport is their natal puberty differing to the biological sex they are racing against.
If only there was something that paused puberty and stopped these changes happening 🤔
Wait a minute there is! But people against trans people wanted those banned.

P.S none of this is a new change , its simply restoring the rights LGBT people had before the trump administration
Reply 30
Original post by SHallowvale
If you think there are enough numbers to make this issue significant then by all means provide them. At the moment only about 5 examples have been given in this thread.

I don't care whether the author is a transphobe or not. It has no relevance to the argument.

I have already stated my position and referenced the book on the matter. However, you have yet to answer the question as to why numbers are important going in one direction but irrelevant when going in the other?

I rather doubt it but either way i'm pretty sure basing an argument on an ad hominem is relevant...
Original post by Napp
I have already stated my position and referenced the book on the matter. However, you have yet to answer the question as to why numbers are important going in one direction but irrelevant when going in the other?

I rather doubt it but either way i'm pretty sure basing an argument on an ad hominem is relevant...

I know what your position is, I am asking for evidence that justifies it. Have you read that book that you're referring to?

I'm not sure what 'other direction' you're talking about, so I can't answer that question. I'm not sure what this has to do with the claim that women's sports is doomed.

What ad hominem have I used in my argument?
Reply 32
Original post by SHallowvale
I know what your position is, I am asking for evidence that justifies it. Have you read that book that you're referring to?

I'm not sure what 'other direction' you're talking about, so I can't answer that question. I'm not sure what this has to do with the claim that women's sports is doomed.

What ad hominem have I used in my argument?

Is that a serious question or do you really think i would reference something i never bothered to read myself?

If you, or anyone for that matter, used the argument that you can ignore a minorities complaint (whatever minority or complaint it may be) because "there arent many of them" or instances of whichever issue occurring, what do you think the response would be? One imagines somewhat less than good.
Nothing much, it was a tangent that came up. Threads not having to stay solidly on the title - womens sports, in of themselves, being of less interest to me than the principle here. Hence my including another link as well.

I didnt say you had, i said QE2 had and then asked if you were subscribing to their argument.
Original post by Napp
Is that a serious question or do you really think i would reference something i never bothered to read myself?

If you, or anyone for that matter, used the argument that you can ignore a minorities complaint (whatever minority or complaint it may be) because "there arent many of them" or instances of whichever issue occurring, what do you think the response would be? One imagines somewhat less than good.
Nothing much, it was a tangent that came up. Threads not having to stay solidly on the title - womens sports, in of themselves, being of less interest to me than the principle here. Hence my including another link as well.

I didnt say you had, i said QE2 had and then asked if you were subscribing to their argument.

Sometimes people reference books without reading them, hence why I asked. If you've read the book, could you say what evidence it presents to show that there are enough numbers to make this issue significant problem?

My comment that "there aren't many of them" is solely about whether women's sport is doomed. This is the argument that both articles present which is entirely dependent on the prevalence of trans women participating in women's sport. That's the point I am arguing against. The comment has nothing to do with whether trans women participating in women's sport is an issue in it's own right, of which I have no opinion either way.

Right, then as I said before I don't.
Reply 34
Original post by Napp
Interesting view to take, weren't you recently going on about trans people being whatever gender they've elected to identify with and this being an immutable fact? Now you're saying that their chosen identify is in fact a falsehood? Very interesting. How do you square these two mutually exclusive views exactly? Or is it simply this particular transgendered person you think is faking it?:holmes:

1. "for falsely claiming to be female when actually still a male under competition rules"
2. My views on gender definitions are completely irrelevant to the rules of particular sporting governing bodies.
Hopefully, that should make it a bit easier for you to understand. (not holding my breath though)
Reply 35
Original post by QE2
1. "for falsely claiming to be female when actually still a male under competition rules"
2. My views on gender definitions are completely irrelevant to the rules of particular sporting governing bodies.
Hopefully, that should make it a bit easier for you to understand. (not holding my breath though)

Hey you're the one who cited an example of, of all things, a sporting body stating categorically that somebodies self definition is an irrelevance. Not exactly a nice shout of support for your position if even sporting bodies don't agree with you :rolleyes:. Cute little insult at the end though, more than slightly hypocritical given your own little problem with comprehension..
Reply 36
So what is your objection if it is not that trans-women will mean that cis-women can't compete?
Even when she won, she admitted that it was only because the unusual conditions favoured her style.

The fact that a singe cis-female managed to out compete her does not prove that it was unfair for the many other cis-females.

These are the winners of the women's long drive title. The trans-women are in red.
2000 Stacey Shinnick 249 yards
2001 Lee Brandon 291 yards
2002 Stacey Shinnick 292 yards
2003 Nancy Abiecunas 332 yards
2004 Sally Dee 287 yards
2005 Stacey Shinnick 311 yards
2006 Phillis Meti 326 yards
2007 Sheila Kelliher 329 yards
2008 Lana Lawless 245 yards
2009 N/A
2010 N/A
2011 Sandra Carlborg 285 yards
2012 Sandra Carlborg 339 yards
2013 Heather LeMaster 306 yards
2014 Sandra Carlborg 332 yards
2015 Sandra Carlborg 321 yards
2016 Phillis Meti 310 yards
2017 Sandra Carlborg 320 yards
2018 Phillis Meti[19] 317 yards
2019 Chloe Garner[20] 347 yards

So, tell me again about how cis-women can't compete with trans-women.

2 of these "women" came out of nowhere to take top level titles. But sure "reactionary nonsense" it is...

Not really.
Claiming that two examples of dubious relevance supports the claim that allowing trans-women to compete in women's sports is "the end or women's sport" and they will "wipe the floor" with cis-women competitors is demonstrable nonsense.

5) There are numerous other examples such as Andraya Yearwood and Laurel Hubbard. The former came first place repeatedly and the latter won a gold medal....

Yearwood has only competed at a regional schools level. Ironically, she has recently been beaten by a cis-female athlete whose parents are suing to prevent Yearwood from competing.
Cis-female competitors have lifted more than Hubbard's best, and she was a top competitive lifter as a male, so hardly out of nowhere".

It seems that whatever examples the anti-trans brigade come up with, they always show that there are cis-women who out-perform them.

In order to delegitimize a POV you are opposed to, you're making wild assumptions and generalizations. There's no correlation between wanting people to compete with the gender you are assigned at birth with and the 8 random categories you just listed. In fact out of those 8, I can't see a single one I'd be "outraged" about.

It was just an observation that the same people are often opposed to a similar package of social justice/human rights issues. It could be just coincidence.
(edited 3 years ago)
Reply 37
Original post by Napp
I didnt say you had, i said QE2 had and then asked if you were subscribing to their argument.

I didn't say the author was "an unreconstructed transphobe". I merely pointed out that her objection was essentially based on the argument that trans-women are not women.
However, it is surprising that you consider that argument to be transphobic. There's hope for you yet!
Reply 38
Original post by Napp
Are you attempting to make some form of point here?

Er, obviously yes. Not sure how you could be confused about what that point was.
(I was correcting your malapropism, in case you are still confused)

Although that really is a most amusing, if disparate and eclectic, grouping you've mustered up there.

Are you denying that there are people who become agitated over all or most of those issues?
Reply 39
Original post by Napp
Hey you're the one who cited an example of, of all things, a sporting body stating categorically that somebodies self definition is an irrelevance. Not exactly a nice shout of support for your position if even sporting bodies don't agree with you :rolleyes:. Cute little insult at the end though, more than slightly hypocritical given your own little problem with comprehension..

What are you on about?
You claimed that Biden's EO means the end of women's sports.
Examples were given that were purported to support your claim.
I showed why those examples do not support your claim. I was not citing them as examples of anything to do with my position on the issue. Not sure why you would think I was.

Anyway - as it has been comprehensively shown that allowing trans-women to compete in female sports does not even lead to a significant number or trans-winners at any level, let alone "the end of women's sport", do you now accept that your claim is false and your position untenable?

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