Do most women identify as cisgender?

Original post by Hallouminatus

Most women don't identify as cisgender, and many feel that describing them as such is disrespectful.

Could you cite where "most women" have said this?

Reply 2

OP

Original post by 04MR17

Could you cite where "most women" have said this?

I don't have any statistical data to back up this assertion, I'm afraid. I think it is likely to be true, though, and if anyone can point to evidence to either support or refute it, I'd certainly be interested to see it.

Reply 3

Original post by Hallouminatus

I don't have any statistical data to back up this assertion, I'm afraid. I think it is likely to be true, though, and if anyone can point to evidence to either support or refute it, I'd certainly be interested to see it.

So you believe that most women think a certain thing with no evidence at all.
I've personally never seen a cisgender woman claim that she doesn't identify as such, or that she feels uncomfortable with such a label.
Given the raw number of cisgender women I've met and know well, I find it unlikely that your assertion is correct.

Reply 4

OP

Original post by 04MR17

So you believe that most women think a certain thing with no evidence at all.
I've personally never seen a cisgender woman claim that she doesn't identify as such, or that she feels uncomfortable with such a label.
Given the raw number of cisgender women I've met and know well, I find it unlikely that your assertion is correct.

I found a recent online poll which asks the question: "Do you feel like you have a gender identity?" Of more than 2500 respondents, 91% said "I do not feel like I have a gender identity". I'd be surprised if you have asked a greater number of people.
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4158457-To-think-that-the-vast-majority-of-people-do-not-feel-they-have-a-gender-identity.
Also, my claim was that most women don't identify as cisgender. Yours seems to be that most cisgender women identify as cisgender women, which seems like a circular argument.

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 5

OP

Original post by 04MR17

I've personally never seen a cisgender woman claim that she doesn't identify as such, or that she feels uncomfortable with such a label.
Given the raw number of cisgender women I've met and know well, I find it unlikely that your assertion is correct.

I just reread this, and realised that I may have been unfair when I said it seemed like a circular argument. What you actually seem to be saying is:

You know loads of people whom you believe to be cisgender women.
You've never heard any of them claim not to identify as such, or that they feel uncomfortable with such a label.

Therefore, they must happily self-identify as cisgender women.

Well, if you can't see the flaw in this argument, perhaps you could consider that certain people believe that the British royal family are shape-shifting reptilians. Those people could probably honestly assert that they have not heard any member of the royals claim not to identify as shape-shifting reptilians, or to feel uncomfortable with such a label.

I doubt this would convince you that the royal family do in fact happily self-identify as shape-shifting reptilians, and your analogous argument doesn't convince me either.

But still, I was wrong to describe it as a circular argument, and I apologise for that.

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 6

Original post by Hallouminatus

I found a recent online poll which asks the question: "Do you feel like you have a gender identity?" Of more than 2500 respondents, 91% said "I do not feel like I have a gender identity". I'd be surprised if you have asked a greater number of people.
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4158457-To-think-that-the-vast-majority-of-people-do-not-feel-they-have-a-gender-identity.
Also, my claim was that most women don't identify as cisgender. Yours seems to be that most cisgender women identify as cisgender women, which seems like a circular argument.

In which case I think you need to read up on what constitutes identity, since it's not something purely self-attributed. That attribution needs to be accepted by and is often instigated by the perceptions of others. Therefore gender identity is something that can be assumed by others, unless it is corrected.

I'd strongly recommend reading some of Stuart Hall's work on identity. It is fascinating stuff.

Reply 7

OP

Original post by 04MR17

In which case I think you need to read up on what constitutes identity, since it's not something purely self-attributed. That attribution needs to be accepted by and is often instigated by the perceptions of others. Therefore gender identity is something that can be assumed by others, unless it is corrected.

I'd strongly recommend reading some of Stuart Hall's work on identity. It is fascinating stuff.

Thanks, I'll check that out. Can you suggest any specific sources for a beginner? And could you clarify what you mean when you say that gender identity can be assumed by others, unless it is corrected? Do you mean that you assume everyone has a cisgender identity unless they explicitly tell you otherwise? That seems extraordinarily presumptuous, especially considering that it appears that most people, when asked directly about their gender identity, deny even having one.

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 8

Ascend

13

Original post by Hallouminatus

Most women don't identify as cisgender, and many feel that describing them as such is disrespectful. It can be taken to imply that they are content to conform to social norms of femininity. Ironically, in trying to defend the RSUH guidelines, you've actually found another form of disrespectful language which they seem to have managed to avoid.

Most people also don't identify as Homo sapiens but they're not such snowflakes as to find it disrespectful.

Reply 9

Original post by Hallouminatus

Thanks, I'll check that out. Can you suggest any specific sources for a beginner? And could you clarify what you mean when you say that gender identity can be assumed by others, unless it is corrected? Do you mean that you assume everyone has a cisgender identity unless they explicitly tell you otherwise? That seems extraordinarily presumptuous, especially considering that it appears that most people, when asked directly about their gender identity, deny even having one.

People deny having having one either because they are dumb or because gender identity is a socio-cultural construct and has no physical manifestation.

If I claim that my gender identity is as an ironing board, that's not realistic. And so my friends, relatives and society will reject my claim. The same is true with any gender identity on a more subtle level. If you are of the female sex, but identify as a man, you need to have an appearance where friends, relatives, colleagues, society can believe in your identity as a man. It has to be accepted, not just claimed.

So identity is something that is negotiates between a person and everybody else. Take nicknames as an example. Most nicknames that people get at school aren't generated by the person who has the nickname. Other people start using it and the name sticky. Jonathan probably doesn't mind being called Johno and if he did it's his obligation to say "actually, I don't like being called Johno" in order to try to lose the nickname.

The same principle can be at play with gender. Society will see somebody however they see them unless an alternative identity is established. That's why coming out is so hard for people - they have to break down and destroy an old identity and create a new one.

Hopefully all this helps. :smile:

Reply 10

OP

Clearing and Applications Advisor

Original post by 04MR17

People deny having having one either because they are dumb or because gender identity is a socio-cultural construct and has no physical manifestation.

If I claim that my gender identity is as an ironing board, that's not realistic. And so my friends, relatives and society will reject my claim. The same is true with any gender identity on a more subtle level. If you are of the female sex, but identify as a man, you need to have an appearance where friends, relatives, colleagues, society can believe in your identity as a man. It has to be accepted, not just claimed.

So identity is something that is negotiates between a person and everybody else. Take nicknames as an example. Most nicknames that people get at school aren't generated by the person who has the nickname. Other people start using it and the name sticky. Jonathan probably doesn't mind being called Johno and if he did it's his obligation to say "actually, I don't like being called Johno" in order to try to lose the nickname.

The same principle can be at play with gender. Society will see somebody however they see them unless an alternative identity is established. That's why coming out is so hard for people - they have to break down and destroy an old identity and create a new one.

Hopefully all this helps. :smile:

Thanks, this is interesting, but the notion that a person's gender identity is some kind of consensus arrived at through negotiation between the individual and society seems very different from any definition I've seen elsewhere. Gender identity is commonly defined as a person's inner sense of themselves as male, female or non-binary, which may be distinct from their appearance and how others see them. You say that an identity has to be accepted not just claimed, but accepted by whom? By everybody? By a majority? And does acceptance count if not sincere? If it is granted out of kindness or courtesy, or out of fear?
If gender identity is such a subtle, negotiable and hard to define concept, it seems unkind and unreasonable for you to characterize people who deny having one as dumb.

Reply 11

PQ

21

Original post by Hallouminatus

Most women don't identify as cisgender, and many feel that describing them as such is disrespectful. It can be taken to imply that they are content to conform to social norms of femininity. Ironically, in trying to defend the RSUH guidelines, you've actually found another form of disrespectful language which they seem to have managed to avoid.

Nice bit of mansplaining there. You know I'm a cis woman right?

I doubt most women don't identify as cis (once the concept is explained as "not trans" or "identifying as a women if you were AFAB") - that would imply that most women are trans or NB (and therefore would be welcoming of more inclusive language) :flute:

You probably want to spend less time hanging out on prosecco stormfront if you want to find out what people who aren't obsessively transphobic think about sex and gender. Gender identity isn't about social norms of femininity - you're confusing gender performance with identity :wink:

and gender performance is policed far more strongly by cis people than trans and NB people.

I'm afraid I have as much time for people claiming cis is disrespectful as the people who objected to be being called straight.

Reply 12

OP

Original post by Ascend

Most people also don't identify as Homo sapiens but they're not such snowflakes as to find it disrespectful.

Well of course being homo sapiens is not a matter of self identity: it's matter of fact. Your sex, like your species, is matter of fact. Being a man or woman is defined by your biology. However, being cisgender, transgender or non-binary is a matter of identity and belief. And calling people snowflakes because they are offended by you imposing your beliefs on them seems a bit arrogant.

Reply 13

OP

Original post by PQ

Nice bit of mansplaining there. You know I'm a cis woman right?

I doubt most women don't identify as cis (once the concept is explained as "not trans" or "identifying as a women if you were AFAB") - that would imply that most women are trans or NB (and therefore would be welcoming of more inclusive language) :flute:

You probably want to spend less time hanging out on prosecco stormfront if you want to find out what people who aren't obsessively transphobic think about sex and gender. Gender identity isn't about social norms of femininity - you're confusing gender performance with identity :wink:

and gender performance is policed far more strongly by cis people than trans and NB people.

I'm afraid I have as much time for people claiming cis is disrespectful as the people who objected to be being called straight.

I've never come across anyone claiming "straight" is offensive, but many people do find "cis" offensive, for reasons which are not hard to understand.

WTF is "prosecco stormfront"?

Reply 14

Original post by Hallouminatus

Thanks, this is interesting, but the notion that a person's gender identity is some kind of consensus arrived at through negotiation between the individual and society seems very different from any definition I've seen elsewhere. Gender identity is commonly defined as a person's inner sense of themselves as male, female or non-binary, which may be distinct from their appearance and how others see them. You say that an identity has to be accepted not just claimed, but accepted by whom? By everybody? By a majority? And does acceptance count if not sincere? If it is granted out of kindness or courtesy, or out of fear?
If gender identity is such a subtle, negotiable and hard to define concept, it seems unkind and unreasonable for you to characterize people who deny having one as dumb.

The inner sense of themselves is a very romantic definition and not very measurable. As for who has to accept the identity, it varies because an individual projects a different identity depending on the social environment. The way you present yourself and behave in the workplace is different to how you might at home, or out with friends, or visiting relatives, or being in the gym. You're the same person but your identity changes because different people see you in different ways and you respond to that by presenting yourself in a different way too. So we all have varied and multiple identities and gender is one part of that - and usually a part that is consistent across our different identities. This is why some people mistake gender for being predetermined rather than constructed.

If acceptance is not sincere then it is not acceptance. It is just people trying to be polite. But acceptance also takes time. When my cousin changed his name from Wendy to John (neither are the actual names but the example works) it took my grandmother a long time to adjust, and there was resistance. Eventually she got John right. It took her a lot longer to start saying he instead of she and sometimes still makes a mistake. It's taken about 3 years but my grandmother is now accepting of my cousin's identity because it's consistently projected and it's accepted by everyone else in the family already.

The only credible argument to say "I have no gender" is by saying that gender is a socio-cultural construct, it has no physical manifestation. It is therefore artificial and believing in thr existence of gender is therefore a falsehood. I don't necessarily agree with that argument but it is a legitimate claim to make. If you claim that gender exists but that it does not apply to you, then that is just indicative of a lack of understanding of what gender is, hence the comment that to make such a claim is dumb.

Reply 15

OP

Thanks for your explanation. It seems to me that you are describing a concept of gender which encompasses a range of distinct but related entities, such as gender identity, gender expression, gender norms and roles etc. The problem I have with this is not whether such things exist, but that gender, thus defined becomes so nebulous, mutable and negotiable that nobody can claim with any authority to know anyone's gender, even their own.

Reply 16

Original post by Hallouminatus

Thanks for your explanation. It seems to me that you are describing a concept of gender which encompasses a range of distinct but related entities, such as gender identity, gender expression, gender norms and roles etc. The problem I have with this is not whether such things exist, but that gender, thus defined becomes so nebulous, mutable and negotiable that nobody can claim with any authority to know anyone's gender, even their own.

Correct. Why is that a problem?

Reply 17

OP

Original post by 04MR17

Correct. Why is that a problem?

You said in an earlier post something to the effect that you know many cisgender women, all of them comfortable with that gender label.

Now you seem to be accepting that any individual's gender is fundamentally unknowable.

Is there not a problem here?

Reply 18

Original post by Hallouminatus

You said in an earlier post something to the effect that you know many cisgender women, all of them comfortable with that gender label.

Now you seem to be accepting that any individual's gender is fundamentally unknowable.

Is there not a problem here?

Correct. I know many people that I identify to be cisgender women.
I don't know they're cisgender women, but unless there is a change to the status quo that is how they will be identified by me and others.
I don't see a problem. Unless people wish to write a bio on their foreheads there's not a grand amount that can be done. I know quite a lot of people choose to put pronouns on their email signatures or wear badges with them, but that's a personal choice and anyone not wishing to do that leaves themselves free and open to being identified by other people in whatever way they perceive that person. This has been the case for centuries so I don't see why it's particularly a problem.

Reply 19

OP