Children aged 12-15 to be offered covid jab at schools in England
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Original post by hotpud
but I have to wonder what has gone so badly wrong in your life that you can't trust experts?
The "experts" in my opinion have shown they are willing to lie to the public if it helps them achieve their ends. the "Noble Lie" about masks being a prime example.
It's no surprise that Megacent and indeed lots of the public are now highly skeptical of anything the "experts" tell us.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
The "experts" in my opinion have shown they are willing to lie to the public if it helps them achieve their ends. the "Noble Lie" about masks being a prime example.
And what would their "ends" or end goal be just exactly? Bear in mind there are lots of different types of experts from government sponsored to independent, all scrutinising the data and all agreeing. Do you have any evidence to support this claim or shall I report it as being unconstructive as per the community rules?
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by hotpud
Do you have any evidence to support this claim ?
The "Noble Lie" has been well documented and reported.
The Noble Lie
"Just over 100 days ago, England’s Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jonathan Van-Tam claimed that “there is no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society.” In January, Public Health England took a break from failing to scale up testing to declare that there was “very little evidence of widespread benefit from [mask] use outside of these clinical settings”.
https://capx.co/the-masks-fiasco-shows-the-dangers-of-a-noble-lie/
The Surgeon General in the USA stated:
"Seriously people—STOP BUYING MASKS!" and "They are NOT effective in preventing [the] general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can't get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!"
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/29/health/face-masks-coronavirus-surgeon-general-trnd/index.html
The CDC said:
"if you are NOT sick, you do not need to wear a facemask unless you are caring for someone who is sick (and they are not able to wear a facemask). Facemasks may be in short supply and they should be saved for caregivers."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/31/health/coronavirus-masks-experts-debate/index.html
The Noble Lie Should Never Have Been Told
https://theweek.com/articles/906647/noble-lie-about-masks-coronavirus-should-never-have-been-told
After weeks of telling the public this info government and the WHO and CDC all did complete U-Turns on the mas issue and told the public that in fact they are beneficial and then mandated them.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
The "Noble Lie" has been well documented and reported.
The Noble Lie
"Just over 100 days ago, England’s Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jonathan Van-Tam claimed that “there is no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society.” In January, Public Health England took a break from failing to scale up testing to declare that there was “very little evidence of widespread benefit from [mask] use outside of these clinical settings”.
https://capx.co/the-masks-fiasco-shows-the-dangers-of-a-noble-lie/
The Surgeon General in the USA stated:
"Seriously people—STOP BUYING MASKS!" and "They are NOT effective in preventing [the] general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can't get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!"
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/29/health/face-masks-coronavirus-surgeon-general-trnd/index.html
The CDC said:
"if you are NOT sick, you do not need to wear a facemask unless you are caring for someone who is sick (and they are not able to wear a facemask). Facemasks may be in short supply and they should be saved for caregivers."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/31/health/coronavirus-masks-experts-debate/index.html
The Noble Lie Should Never Have Been Told
https://theweek.com/articles/906647/noble-lie-about-masks-coronavirus-should-never-have-been-told
After weeks of telling the public this info government and the WHO and CDC all did complete U-Turns on the mas issue and told the public that in fact they are beneficial and then mandated them.
The Noble Lie
"Just over 100 days ago, England’s Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jonathan Van-Tam claimed that “there is no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society.” In January, Public Health England took a break from failing to scale up testing to declare that there was “very little evidence of widespread benefit from [mask] use outside of these clinical settings”.
https://capx.co/the-masks-fiasco-shows-the-dangers-of-a-noble-lie/
The Surgeon General in the USA stated:
"Seriously people—STOP BUYING MASKS!" and "They are NOT effective in preventing [the] general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can't get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!"
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/29/health/face-masks-coronavirus-surgeon-general-trnd/index.html
The CDC said:
"if you are NOT sick, you do not need to wear a facemask unless you are caring for someone who is sick (and they are not able to wear a facemask). Facemasks may be in short supply and they should be saved for caregivers."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/31/health/coronavirus-masks-experts-debate/index.html
The Noble Lie Should Never Have Been Told
https://theweek.com/articles/906647/noble-lie-about-masks-coronavirus-should-never-have-been-told
After weeks of telling the public this info government and the WHO and CDC all did complete U-Turns on the mas issue and told the public that in fact they are beneficial and then mandated them.
This seems rather off topic. Should I report it?
Why do hospital workers wear face masks / shields? I guess they are all in on your conspiratorial lie too?
Original post by hotpud
This seems rather off topic.
YOU asked posters "why don't people trust the experts". I answered your question citing the example of the Nobel Lie as one of the reasons why people don't trust the experts. If you don't want the answers or you feel the subject is off-topic then don't ask questions about those topics.
Original post by hotpud
Why do hospital workers wear face masks / shields?
What does this question have to do with offering Covid jabs to 12-15 yr olds?
The answer is they wear them because they are working in "clinical settings" which place health workers in direct contact with patients where either the health worker or the patient or both could be infected with a pathogen. The use of PPE mitigates the risks in that specific clinical setting. Such a setting is not remotely the same as members of the public sitting in the same room or being in the same supermarket and the like.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
What does this question have to do with offering Covid jabs to 12-15 yr olds?
I put the same question to you. Why are you suddenly talking about face masks?
You keep using the word Lie. I can't help but feel what you are actually talking about is hindsight. Why not put your money where your mouth is. If you were Boris Johnson how would you manage the pandemic over the next 12 months. We can then assess how much of an expert you are next year. You could be right at which point I would gladly pat you on the back and offer you my congratulations.
Original post by hotpud
I put the same question to you. Why are you suddenly talking about face masks?
Because YOU asked why people don't trust the experts as I stated above. Your question has been answered citing the Noble Lie about masks as an example of why people don't trust the experts.
hotpud
Why not put your money where your mouth is. If you were Boris Johnson how would you manage the pandemic over the next 12 months. We can then assess how much of an expert you are next year. You could be right at which point I would gladly pat you on the back and offer you my congratulations.
Why not put your money where your mouth is. If you were Boris Johnson how would you manage the pandemic over the next 12 months. We can then assess how much of an expert you are next year. You could be right at which point I would gladly pat you on the back and offer you my congratulations.
Sorry but this just makes no sense. I'm not Boris, I have no influence over how the country is run so how could my views on it possibly sway anything?
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
Because YOU asked why people don't trust the experts as I stated above. Your question has been answered citing the Noble Lie about masks as an example of why people don't trust the experts.
Sorry but this just makes no sense. I'm not Boris, I have no influence over how the country is run so how could my views on it possibly sway anything?
Sorry but this just makes no sense. I'm not Boris, I have no influence over how the country is run so how could my views on it possibly sway anything?
So you don't have an opinion on how the pandemic should be managed in the future? You are only happy to criticise those who do. It sounds like a good strategy as you can never lose.
I think any pandemic should be managed with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Government should not try to conceal salient facts from the public, they should be made aware of everything so they can make informed decisions for themselves. Instead the public imo has been subjected to spin and misleading figures and data, has been given crafted narratives rather than simple truth and has been subjected to 18 months of disgusting scaremongering from MSM.
I would have followed the Great Barrington Declaration [1] recommendations of shielding the most vulnerable and properly supporting them whilst letting the vast majority of the public go about their business and gain their natural immunity to Covid. I would have deployed every possible drug and/or treatment that was known to be safe and which showed promise in the battle against Covid, granting each Emergency Usage Authority. I would not have waited for new vaccines to appear before doing this. Anything that had potential to help reduce hospitalisations and deaths I would have used and recommended GPs to do so.
Of course this is all water under the bridge. The damage has been done.
All in all imo it's been catastrophic. In my opinion an utterly massive over-reaction to a virus that 99%+of people survive, which only 0.2% of the UK population have died from or with [2]. It's too late now to talk about how the pandemic should be managed going forward. The damage has already been done, the impacts of what has already transpired will be felt for years.
[1] - https://gbdeclaration.org/
[2] - https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
I would have followed the Great Barrington Declaration [1] recommendations of shielding the most vulnerable and properly supporting them whilst letting the vast majority of the public go about their business and gain their natural immunity to Covid. I would have deployed every possible drug and/or treatment that was known to be safe and which showed promise in the battle against Covid, granting each Emergency Usage Authority. I would not have waited for new vaccines to appear before doing this. Anything that had potential to help reduce hospitalisations and deaths I would have used and recommended GPs to do so.
Of course this is all water under the bridge. The damage has been done.
All in all imo it's been catastrophic. In my opinion an utterly massive over-reaction to a virus that 99%+of people survive, which only 0.2% of the UK population have died from or with [2]. It's too late now to talk about how the pandemic should be managed going forward. The damage has already been done, the impacts of what has already transpired will be felt for years.
[1] - https://gbdeclaration.org/
[2] - https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
I think any pandemic should be managed with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Government should not try to conceal salient facts from the public
I couldn't agree more. But what exactly is "the truth"? And there-in lies the problem because I believe you have constructed for yourself a version of the truth from which no amount of facts can move you. So you will never get the truth because the truth is different to your narrative of "the truth". And whilst the two don't align it is simply a case of lies and conspiracy on the part of the government.
I will be more than happy to change my view of whatever the truth is as new evidence emerges and the scientific consensus changes. Will you?
The other thing you don't seem to appreciate is that of public messaging. If you want the best for the public sometimes you have to make the message really simple even if the concepts behind it are really complex. It has nothing to do with facts or lies. It is just the art of public messaging. Take the fuel issue we are experiencing. 6 petrol stations run dry, Grant Shaps says there is no issue with supply and all of a sudden the nation is panic buying. Public health messaging is something you have neither acknowledged nor I believe do you understand.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by hotpud
I couldn't agree more. But what exactly is "the truth"?
Well for example the truth would be:
1) Stating the true number of Covid cases of all kinds that have occurred in the UK or the best estimates of such
2) Stating the true number of actual deaths specifically caused by Covid rather than deaths WITH Covid
3) Using a reliable test kit to determine current infections instead of using test kits that are wholly unreliable and which can't determine a current infection from a past infection.
4) Telling the public what the mRNA treatments are instead of treating them as regular vaccines
5) Telling the public what their realistic chances of getting serious Covid illness are at each age group
6) Telling the public how many millions of people have successfully recovered from Covid without any issues
and so on
Original post by hotpud
The other thing you don't seem to appreciate is that of public messaging. If you want the best for the public sometimes you have to make the message really simple even if the concepts behind it are really complex. It has nothing to do with facts or lies.
No, a lie is a lie. Black and white. It's not making things simple. It's deception.
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
Well for example the truth would be:
1) Stating the true number of Covid cases of all kinds that have occurred in the UK or the best estimates of such
2) Stating the true number of actual deaths specifically caused by Covid rather than deaths WITH Covid
3) Using a reliable test kit to determine current infections instead of using test kits that are wholly unreliable and which can't determine a current infection from a past infection.
4) Telling the public what the mRNA treatments are instead of treating them as regular vaccines
5) Telling the public what their realistic chances of getting serious Covid illness are at each age group
6) Telling the public how many millions of people have successfully recovered from Covid without any issues
and so on
1) Stating the true number of Covid cases of all kinds that have occurred in the UK or the best estimates of such
2) Stating the true number of actual deaths specifically caused by Covid rather than deaths WITH Covid
3) Using a reliable test kit to determine current infections instead of using test kits that are wholly unreliable and which can't determine a current infection from a past infection.
4) Telling the public what the mRNA treatments are instead of treating them as regular vaccines
5) Telling the public what their realistic chances of getting serious Covid illness are at each age group
6) Telling the public how many millions of people have successfully recovered from Covid without any issues
and so on
So going on.
1. What are the true number of covid cases? I take it you have also been counting?
2. What are the true number of deaths? I also take it you have been counting?
3. Which testing kits should we have been using? You clearly know better.
4. Why are mRNA vaccines worse than regular vaccines? What even is a regular vaccine? Please tell us oh wise one,
5. I think the public made their mind up on that one. And as we saw last weekend, no amount of facts stopped everyone panic buying. You don't seem to have any understanding on how society works when it comes to public information.
6. How many millions have recovered? I take it you have been counting? Did you not hear Boris saying that there was nothing to fear. That people who died had complications... until people without complications started dying that is?
Original post by hotpud
So going on.
1. What are the true number of covid cases? I take it you have also been counting?
They are far more than the 7,900,680 "confirmed cases" the government publishes on its dashboard website
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19220824.covid-herd-immunity-reached-within-days-uk/
2. What are the true number of deaths? I also take it you have been counting?
Impossible to tell as true Covid deaths have not been counted AFAIK. All we know is that the so-called "Covid Deaths" stated by government are defined as any death that has occurred within 28 days of a positive Covid test result and that "Covid Deaths" also include deaths where the deceased was never even tested for Covid at all.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf
3. Which testing kits should we have been using? You clearly know better.
I'm unaware of any test kit that can determine a current Covid infection from a past infection nor any test kit that can determine one variant from another. The only reliable way of testing for a current infection I believe is a proper laboratory analysis.
4. Why are mRNA vaccines worse than regular vaccines? What even is a regular vaccine? Please tell us oh wise one,
I didn't say they were worse. A regular vaccine is defined thus:
"A preparation of a weakened or killed pathogen, such as a bacterium or virus, or of a portion of the pathogen's structure that upon administration to an individual stimulates antibody production or cellular immunity against the pathogen but is incapable of causing severe infection."
https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vaccine
Regular vaccines like Polio or Smallpox bestow sterilising immunity which means you can't become infected once vaccinated. Covid vaccines do not bestow such immunity. They simply lessen severity of infection rather than guarantee to prevent infection.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/covid-19-vaccines-and-sterilizing-immunity-5092148
5. I think the public made their mind up on that one. And as we saw last weekend, no amount of facts stopped everyone panic buying. You don't seem to have any understanding on how society works when it comes to public information.
The MSM broadcasts caused the panic buying of fuel imo and were thoroughly despicable and divisive
6. How many millions have recovered? I take it you have been counting? Did you not hear Boris saying that there was nothing to fear. That people who died had complications... until people without complications started dying that is?
Already answered. University College London published that 42% of the UK population had been exposed to the virus back in April 2021. That would be some 28 million people. By now it will be far more.
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19220824.covid-herd-immunity-reached-within-days-uk/
Thanks for playing . . . .
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
1. What are the true number of covid cases? I take it you have also been counting?
They are far more than the 7,900,680 "confirmed cases" the government publishes on its dashboard website
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19220824.covid-herd-immunity-reached-within-days-uk/
2. What are the true number of deaths? I also take it you have been counting?
Impossible to tell as true Covid deaths have not been counted AFAIK. All we know is that the so-called "Covid Deaths" stated by government are defined as any death that has occurred within 28 days of a positive Covid test result and that "Covid Deaths" also include deaths where the deceased was never even tested for Covid at all.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf
3. Which testing kits should we have been using? You clearly know better.
I'm unaware of any test kit that can determine a current Covid infection from a past infection nor any test kit that can determine one variant from another. The only reliable way of testing for a current infection I believe is a proper laboratory analysis.
4. Why are mRNA vaccines worse than regular vaccines? What even is a regular vaccine? Please tell us oh wise one,
I didn't say they were worse. A regular vaccine is defined thus:
"A preparation of a weakened or killed pathogen, such as a bacterium or virus, or of a portion of the pathogen's structure that upon administration to an individual stimulates antibody production or cellular immunity against the pathogen but is incapable of causing severe infection."
https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vaccine
Regular vaccines like Polio or Smallpox bestow sterilising immunity which means you can't become infected once vaccinated. Covid vaccines do not bestow such immunity. They simply lessen severity of infection rather than guarantee to prevent infection.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/covid-19-vaccines-and-sterilizing-immunity-5092148
5. I think the public made their mind up on that one. And as we saw last weekend, no amount of facts stopped everyone panic buying. You don't seem to have any understanding on how society works when it comes to public information.
The MSM broadcasts caused the panic buying of fuel imo and were thoroughly despicable and divisive
6. How many millions have recovered? I take it you have been counting? Did you not hear Boris saying that there was nothing to fear. That people who died had complications... until people without complications started dying that is?
Already answered. University College London published that 42% of the UK population had been exposed to the virus back in April 2021. That would be some 28 million people. By now it will be far more.
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19220824.covid-herd-immunity-reached-within-days-uk/
Thanks for playing . . . .
They are far more than the 7,900,680 "confirmed cases" the government publishes on its dashboard website
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19220824.covid-herd-immunity-reached-within-days-uk/
2. What are the true number of deaths? I also take it you have been counting?
Impossible to tell as true Covid deaths have not been counted AFAIK. All we know is that the so-called "Covid Deaths" stated by government are defined as any death that has occurred within 28 days of a positive Covid test result and that "Covid Deaths" also include deaths where the deceased was never even tested for Covid at all.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf
3. Which testing kits should we have been using? You clearly know better.
I'm unaware of any test kit that can determine a current Covid infection from a past infection nor any test kit that can determine one variant from another. The only reliable way of testing for a current infection I believe is a proper laboratory analysis.
4. Why are mRNA vaccines worse than regular vaccines? What even is a regular vaccine? Please tell us oh wise one,
I didn't say they were worse. A regular vaccine is defined thus:
"A preparation of a weakened or killed pathogen, such as a bacterium or virus, or of a portion of the pathogen's structure that upon administration to an individual stimulates antibody production or cellular immunity against the pathogen but is incapable of causing severe infection."
https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vaccine
Regular vaccines like Polio or Smallpox bestow sterilising immunity which means you can't become infected once vaccinated. Covid vaccines do not bestow such immunity. They simply lessen severity of infection rather than guarantee to prevent infection.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/covid-19-vaccines-and-sterilizing-immunity-5092148
5. I think the public made their mind up on that one. And as we saw last weekend, no amount of facts stopped everyone panic buying. You don't seem to have any understanding on how society works when it comes to public information.
The MSM broadcasts caused the panic buying of fuel imo and were thoroughly despicable and divisive
6. How many millions have recovered? I take it you have been counting? Did you not hear Boris saying that there was nothing to fear. That people who died had complications... until people without complications started dying that is?
Already answered. University College London published that 42% of the UK population had been exposed to the virus back in April 2021. That would be some 28 million people. By now it will be far more.
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19220824.covid-herd-immunity-reached-within-days-uk/
Thanks for playing . . . .
I am confused. So the government is conspiring in some grand lie, yet you cite government figures.
And since when was the Northern Echo and their "Trending Editor" an authority on herd immunity? But hey - fingers crossed, he could be right... until the next variant comes along. If there is one thing I have learned so far it is that covid has a way of surprising everyone.
Original post by hotpud
And since when was the Northern Echo and their "Trending Editor" an authority on herd immunity? But hey - fingers crossed, he could be right... until the next variant comes along. If there is one thing I have learned so far it is that covid has a way of surprising everyone.
This is absurd. The northern Echo is just a newspaper. It's quoting professors from University College London (UCL)
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
This is absurd. The northern Echo is just a newspaper. It's quoting professors from University College London (UCL)
So post a link to the study!
Very good. We are 70% towards herd immunity. And your point is?
BTW - given the UCL has been informing government policy, how do you know that this isn't part of your BIG LIE conspiracy? How is this "the truth" when others are not? How do you decide?
My issue is that you appear to pick and choose studies and articles which fit your own narrative, just as you choose numbers and calculations that make your point.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by hotpud
So post a link to the study!
Very good. We are 70% towards herd immunity. And your point is?
Very good. We are 70% towards herd immunity. And your point is?
The point made was that as of April 42% of the UK population had been exposed to the virus as per that citation. Nothing more, nothing less.
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
The point made was that as of April 42% of the UK population had been exposed to the virus as per that citation. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ok - we agree then.
Original post by hotpud
You keep using the word Lie
Yes, because the experts have in fact been lying.
Comical Chris said that the data showed we could have 4000 deaths a day if we did nothing. The data did NOT show this. Comical Chris knew that the data didn't show this when he claimed that it did. It wasn't a "mistake", it wasn't a prediction of a worse case scenario. It was simply an outright, blatant lie from the Chief Medical Adviser. That's why I don't trust them anymore. I'm not anti science, I'm just fed up of certain scientists spreading misinformation and fearmongering. They are drunk on power and desperate to drag their 15 minutes of fame on as long as they can. We need to stop pandering to their insanity and get on with our lives.
(edited 2 years ago)
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