U.K. to offer emergency visas to HGV drivers.

You sound very bitter. But you also seem intelligent. What is stopping you setting up a profitable business and then helping out the working classes yourself? You could pay fork lift drivers £40k and receptionists £50k in your company. If you don't like something, change it. Don't sit whinging on here doing nothing.

If there is one thing I can guarantee it is that no government is going to solve all of your problems. Maybe you have to solve some of them for yourself?

Don't really see the issue with EU citizens who are working and paying taxes in full benefiting from the UK's services

We'll agree to disagree on that.
I assume that you have a similar stance on all/almost all overseas nationals lawfully resident in the UK that are paying tax & working but hold citizenship of nations outside of the EU.

So much to get into on this point.

Firstly we have traditionally had Sundays off because the UK is a defacto Christian country and that is still the dominant religion. Saudi Arabia and Israel can have their own days off if they do desire.

Secondly I think you've let the cat slip out of the bag. It's not so much about what people "want" Is it? It's about fulfilling some market demand.


See above in bold




I strongly agree with the basic premise of your claim and this is mainly the reason why I'm not an Austrian Economics wise (I agree with them on 90% else)

but I disagree with some of your examples. I know lots of people myself included who benefitted from a zero hour contract and 24/7 hour service is I imagine very popular- being able to buy stuff at Amazon first thing in the morning for next day delivery or getting a cheeseburger at 11PM are very helpful for people with busy lives...

@TCA2b thoughts?

You do know that name calling get's you nowhere so I don't think that namecalling @hotpud is useful and I'm sure that @04MR17 can agree. Mate we have shortages due to Brexit AND the reasons that you've listed, I don't know what about that is so hard to understand. If I can understand this then there's nothing stopping you from doing the same (same thing goes to remainers who want to deny the fact that COVID and other factors besides Brexit had anything to do with the shortages). We get it you don't like the EU and are having to resort to name-calling whenever people try to explain to you why we're worst off or why there are shortages.

Is what Brexiteers are saying (not specifically you) that the shortages have nothing to do with Brexit which is false you said where have we been wrong, Brexiteers as a whole (not necessarily you) are trying to deny the fact that Brexit has anything to do with the shortages.

Agreed. Don't see why he has to resort to name-calling when no other Brexiteer in this thread has done it. Even @Starship Trooper has managed to put forward his thoughts in a respectful manner (even if I disagree with him on almost everything) so I don't see what is stopping Burton from doing the same.

1) Class politics isn't indenity politics at all! The only the right wish to link it into that bracket is to dismiss reality, reality is there is only one form of oppression that's lack of 'X' by wealth. Reality and this is backed up by any statistics you wish, the more wealth you gave the more opportunities, healthcare, living conditions etc you can buy. This doesn't matter if you are a one legged, black, Muslim woman. The truth is if you have the money the easier opportunity comes.

Thats called reality nothing indenity politics.

2) I don't think calling the UK a Christian country holds much water outside of a few leafy rural posh villages. I guess in most middle class and working class places, Muslims have overtaken Christians and non believers out numbering both Christian and muslims put together. But this only my opinion I don't have data to back this up. I always find the traditional Conservative view a bit of a chuckle.

3) Maybe zero hour contracts was not the best example I could have used, I confess. 24/7 service is popular as long as you're not the person providing it for pence.

Irony abounds you are effectively calling Starship in that 🤣

1-
A- Isn't identity real? Statistically who is going to have better life chances a disabled Muslim woman or a able bodied white person?

B- So are you just measuring class by wealth? Eg Is the premier League football player who thinks Mozart is a cocktail is upper class but a Starbucks barista who went to Eton and studied fine art is working class? I would say there are the people who encompass various classes and backgrounds and various undesirable elements who also have various classes and backgrounds.

2- that's why I said De facto, I agree with you. I'm just saying that the UK has s state religion which is the church of England.

I actually support a secular state. Religion is far stronger in the US than it is in Europe partly because it is untainted by government.

Yeah that did make me chuckle

I'm calling nobody directly @hotpot and myself have history but I'm not calling him at all. I'm describing the middle classes ilk he comes from. When someone or some group acts a certain way highlighting these actions or mannerisms isn't name calling its describing factual events. In fact, it's very important to a balanced society.

So why don't you run back and answer the points you are ignoring or struggling to get across as opposed to running to moderators trying to get opinions you cannot fully assimilate cancelled.




I repeat, would it not be possible to brexit and not enforce the immagrantuon rules which have caused low skilled labour shortages?



Irony abounds you are effectively calling Starship in that 🤣

What am I calling starship? I haven't name called him at all and no one else on this thread has done it. I simply disagree with him, I'm not going to namecall people who I disagree with as that adds nothing productive. Saying this:
It's no wonder the elite can shift blame to the "liberal elite" - AKA the middle classes - with how snobby, self serving and devoid of reality you have become adds nothing and is unnecessary, there's no need to speak like this to someone just because you disagree with them, that's all, no need to be bitter lol, don't see why you have to resort to name-calling regardless of how much you dislike that user and/or the middle class. Also I personally as a middle class person couldn't care less about cancelled Christmas and I don't see why people are making such a big deal out of it (well I can see why but don't really have much sympathy).

A) depends on how wealthy they are. Who's more likely to die on homeless on the streets a disabled Muslim woman or a able bodied white man? 🤔

B) you can try to blur the lines all you wish, the reality remains the more wealth a person has the better life they can buy.

1) it does but its a dead religion, the majority don't care. My point was the remoaner who has been crying about you make it with their rise coloured EU supplied glasses is now complaining about not seeing family at Xmas. It's the status quo they wish to keep which is causing this, the middle classes are so snobby and removed from reality recently. This forum is terrible for it, one thread they are crying concern for the poor the next they are calling them all racist and stupid!

A- Is Identity a reality or isn't it?

Sure a wealthy disabled muslim is going to be better off than a homeless able bodied white guy, That's why I said statistically. I could also by the same token refute your claim by saying that a smart poor person could become a millionaire and a dumb rich person could lose it all.

B- Sure. But that isn't neccessarily a bad thing is it? You're ot a commie so presumably you think a doctor should be paid more than someone who flips burgers right or is on the dole.

1: I won't go into whether christianity is a dead religion or not, suffice to say I disagree (If anyone wants to know why start a new thread and tag me)

I actually don't agree. The problem isn't that they cant criticise the poor for making decisions they think are stupid, the problem is they're wrong.

What am I calling starship? I haven't name called him at all and no one else on this thread has done it. I simply disagree with him, I'm not going to namecall people who I disagree with as that adds nothing productive.

Stand by that, it's not personal to hotpud he belongs to this group and calling them out is important. Are you saying they should be about criticism?

The "you" was aimed at the group not the individual. Example is "You (X football club) was rubbish this weekend, we (z football club) hammered you"

Anything on the actual points/questions in the debate, you are ignoring?

You said "Even Starship...." which could I think be seen as somehow implying that I'm some usually unreasoanble person.

That's not to say I was remotley bothered by it, but I did notice it and found it funny!

A - class poltics are not akin to modern indenity politics

B- of course it a bad thing. If nothing else for selfish reasons many intelligent poor people are being wasted because we only pull from richer demographics. Which is terrible for science, business and the country.

I'm not a commie either, I'm a democratic socialist.

1) non no no, I didn't say christianity was a dead religion. I said church of England is a dead religion.

What would not be possible to Brexit? Need to rephrase that question. Obviously you have every right to call out a group but you can do it in a respectful manner like other users have done 🤷🏾*♀️.

So in your would, how do you call out people how are acting condensing, disrespectful, labelling entire demographics as racists, stupid or lazy based on zero evidence?

So in your would, how do you call out people how are acting condensing, disrespectful, labelling entire demographics as racists, stupid or lazy based on zero evidence?

I mean you just used mirco aggressions on Starship!

A - class poltics are not akin to modern indenity politics

B- of course it a bad thing. If nothing else for selfish reasons many intelligent poor people are being wasted because we only pull from richer demographics. Which is terrible for science, business and the country.

I'm not a commie either, I'm a democratic socialist.

1) non no no, I didn't say christianity was a dead religion. I said church of England is a dead religion.