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    Too many middle class/spoiled kids who think its cool to be communist/anarchist on here. Theres nothing wrong with being proud of who you are and the community your a part of.
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    Why would I be proud of the place where I just happened to be born? When you are proud, you are proud because its something relating to you, like 'I am proud of you, my son' or 'I'm proud I managed to do so well'. Why should the place you are born be the exception to the norm? You don't hear anyone saying 'I am proud of the invention of the wheel'. And thats because you don't have an active part in making the wheel. Sure if you are an MP or something, you have taken a significant role in the country, and thus can legitemately be proud of it.
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    (Original post by *mustache_fart*)
    Why shouldnt i be able to fly a flag of england but the americans pledge their allegance in school everyday? theres nothing wrong with having english or british pride, for such a small country we are extremely powerful. i dont give a flying monkeys ass how much better any other countries are. i was born english and i will remain english. be proud of what you are and stop complaining.
    All the haters can **** off and move to the shanty towns of third world countries and see how they like it. end of.
    You have either not read or not understood the arguments against the word pride.

    Nobody is saying you should not fly the flag if you enjoy doing that, we are just saying there is not any meaning attached to it that you can claim glory from.

    Just saying Americans do this is not an argument. Ok you do not care how much better other countries are, tad ignorant do you not think? Are you going to go through life like this.

    Exactly you happened to be born English...what about if you had been born an Afghan or a Thai or a Canadian your position would make you engage in the same pointless rituals for each country.

    Just because people do not see a point in being proud of something they cannot effect does not mean we hate this country, in fact theres nothing to say that somebody who does not believe in patriotism could not think the country they happen to live in is amazing! It is just that we do not automatically reach that conclusion just because we live here.

    The choice is between rational analysis of the world and irrational tribalism, take your pick but I would prefer to make my own decisions rather than place them in the wheel of fortune of where I was born, whether I am from the north or south, Lancashire or Yorkshire and even Bacup or Rawtenstall!

    Patriotism to often is merely thinly veiled jingoism and supremicism.
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    Well most students are trendy liberals, champagne socialists or dirty hippies. They don't think patriotism is important, even though it's the most patriotic people that are fighting for our country so that we don't have to. How would Britain have survived two world wars if no one then had been patriotic enough to volunteer for the armed forces, or to do everything they could to help the war effort. Most current UK students have grown up in an easy time with relatively few major worries, and as such are unaware of how much this country has done for them. If we had grown up when there was constant threat of war, or invasion, or nuclear annihilation from 'evil' foreign nations, then there might be a unity here, which could possibly have prevented social breakdown and chav formation. Instead we have been raised in a welfare state and never thought to be grateful for it, and taught to take what you can and never give back.
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    In my opinion there are good things and bad things and bad things about Britain, I'm by no means a patriot, I'm left wing but I think some things about the country are good for example:
    -Strong character as a nation, funny aspects like commenting on the weather and tea drinking
    -Music and culture - especially punk
    -The stereotype of the "British gent" which is just cool. haha

    Bad things:
    -Being heavily US-influenced
    -Fighting wars in the middle east for unworthy causes
    -Some people are skummy bastuds.
    -Invading other peoples countries for imperialistic reasons, like invading Ireland and then the treatment of Ireland is something I can't stand about Britain (I'm half Irish). See the film "The wind that shakes the barley," I know its just Irish retaliation to propaganda but oh wells.

    Sorry if I repeated anything I didn't read the whole thread.
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    (Original post by paddyman4)
    Well most students are trendy liberals, champagne socialists or dirty hippies. They don't think patriotism is important, even though it's the most patriotic people that are fighting for our country so that we don't have to. How would Britain have survived two world wars if no one then had been patriotic enough to volunteer for the armed forces, or to do everything they could to help the war effort. Most current UK students have grown up in an easy time with relatively few major worries, and as such are unaware of how much this country has done for them. If we had grown up when there was constant threat of war, or invasion, or nuclear annihilation from 'evil' foreign nations, then there might be a unity here, which could possibly have prevented social breakdown and chav formation. Instead we have been raised in a welfare state and never thought to be grateful for it, and taught to take what you can and never give back.
    Trendy Liberals could have made the decision RATIONALLY to fight in WW1 and 2 on the basis that it was a necessary cost to preserve freedom. Personally I would have refused in WW1 and accepted in WW2.

    Will people please bloomin' stop saying everyone on here is a trendy liberal, socialist, anarchist just because we reason our views. We are using rational argument against pride for pride sake. The people arguing the opposite eventually come down to 'its your country you must have pride' (it reminds me of when religious people eventually get down to saying 'its down to faith)

    This is a choice between:

    a) Being rational, deciding for yourself what you like and do not like about different things in the world.

    b) Giving away the responsibility of choice to the luck of where you were born. Turning your brain off and accepting 'your lot'


    P.S. It does not make me a trendy liberal because I like to use my brain!!! Although I would like to consider myself rather Liberal and trendy.
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    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' Samuel Johnson
    "ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country" - JFK

    See, I can do it too. Only JFK was blatantly greater.
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    (Original post by gillybeans)
    I posted a thread before and people actually said, I kid you not, that it is silly to be proud of your country.

    Perhaps it is this attitude that is dragging Britain slowly down world rankings. I think the reason America is the world's only remaining superpower (I have US citizenship on my mother's side) is because of the fierce patriotism shown by its countrymen. Unlike here where people act as though flying a flag is supporting the BNP.
    america isnt the only superpower, china is doing rather well :yes:
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    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    You have either not read or not understood the arguments against the word pride.

    Nobody is saying you should not fly the flag if you enjoy doing that, we are just saying there is not any meaning attached to it that you can claim glory from.

    Just saying Americans do this is not an argument. Ok you do not care how much better other countries are, tad ignorant do you not think? Are you going to go through life like this.
    Exactly you happened to be born English...what about if you had been born an Afghan or a Thai or a Canadian your position would make you engage in the same pointless rituals for each country.

    Just because people do not see a point in being proud of something they cannot effect does not mean we hate this country, in fact theres nothing to say that somebody who does not believe in patriotism could not think the country they happen to live in is amazing! It is just that we do not automatically reach that conclusion just because we live here.

    The choice is between rational analysis of the world and irrational tribalism, take your pick but I would prefer to make my own decisions rather than place them in the wheel of fortune of where I was born, whether I am from the north or south, Lancashire or Yorkshire and even Bacup or Rawtenstall!

    Patriotism to often is merely thinly veiled jingoism and supremicism.
    What i meant by this was that i have seen people writing about how crap england is and comparing it to other countries that are better and i dont see why that should matter in this case. Im not ignorant thank you. If they dont like england, they should leave. People should be lucky to have a warm bed at night, not to mention free health insurance, which we would be ****** without.
    I kind of understand your point though..if i had the choice i wouldnt of wanted to be born in the town i was...trump town is not for the faint hearted.
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    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    Trendy Liberals could have made the decision RATIONALLY to fight in WW1 and 2 on the basis that it was a necessary cost to preserve freedom. Personally I would have refused in WW1 and accepted in WW2.

    Will people please bloomin' stop saying everyone on here is a trendy liberal, socialist, anarchist just because we reason our views. We are using rational argument against pride for pride sake. The people arguing the opposite eventually come down to 'its your country you must have pride' (it reminds me of when religious people eventually get down to saying 'its down to faith)

    This is a choice between:

    a) Being rational, deciding for yourself what you like and do not like about different things in the world.

    b) Giving away the responsibility of choice to the luck of where you were born. Turning your brain off and accepting 'your lot'


    P.S. It does not make me a trendy liberal because I like to use my brain!!! Although I would like to consider myself rather Liberal and trendy.
    Nevertheless, patriotism played an important part in the wars - the Dunkirk spirit? There was a massive sense of unity, and this kept people going, in the battles, in the factories, in the shelters, etc. It may seem silly, bit I imagine that fighting for Queen and Country gives a soldier the sense of importance that he deserves, and motivates him, whilst if he joined the army because his calculations showed that it somehow benefited him, it would hardly be the same.

    On a similar note, patriotism leads to international rivalry, which has been great for progression. e.g the Space Race - there was no rational benefit to desperately scramble to put the first man on the moon. But the Americans wanted to do it to get one up on the Soviets, and the public support that allowed the project to continue and ultimately succeed came from patriotism - the desire for their country to prove itself to be the best. That petty rivalry led to the ability to put satellites in orbit.
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    (Original post by *mustache_fart*)
    What i meant by this was that i have seen people writing about how crap england is and comparing it to other countries that are better and i dont see why that should matter in this case. Im not ignorant thank you. If they dont like england, they should leave. People should be lucky to have a warm bed at night, not to mention free health insurance, which we would be ****** without.
    I kind of understand your point though..if i had the choice i wouldnt of wanted to be born in the town i was...trump town is not for the faint hearted.
    ok maybe I was a tad aggressive...

    I agree if what you are saying is that people are often instantly very critical of Britain and theway it is ran, it almost seems like the British way! I think these people are as wrong as the patriots who are automatically proud of Britain. People should make their own mind up as to whether they think bits of our country are good or not good not dismiss it as rubbish because perhaps switzerland has a slightly high life expectancy etc.
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    i've never heard of the word unpatriotism. is it american usage ?
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    (Original post by paddyman4)
    Nevertheless, patriotism played an important part in the wars - the Dunkirk spirit? There was a massive sense of unity, and this kept people going, in the battles, in the factories, in the shelters, etc. It may seem silly, bit I imagine that fighting for Queen and Country gives a soldier the sense of importance that he deserves, and motivates him, whilst if he joined the army because his calculations showed that it somehow benefited him, it would hardly be the same.

    On a similar note, patriotism leads to international rivalry, which has been great for progression. e.g the Space Race - there was no rational benefit to desperately scramble to put the first man on the moon. But the Americans wanted to do it to get one up on the Soviets, and the public support that allowed the project to continue and ultimately succeed came from patriotism - the desire for their country to prove itself to be the best. That petty rivalry led to the ability to put satellites in orbit.
    Well in a way the soldier is making a calculation that benefits himself. He feels good about himself because hes being a patriot and he sees this as a good thing, so he does it. Im saying he should feel good about himself because he knows from looking at the situation that he is doing what he personally thinks is the right thing not just blindly following his government for patriotism's sake.

    No, what leads to the most effective progress is a free market, patriotism if anything actually detracts from this. The rivalry for the space race sucked money and resources away from what the market would have used them for, therefore distorting the economy and making it less efficient. The space race has had VERY little actual benefit to man kind,. Satellites were not derived purely from the space race and the market would have produced them if the market demanded them. The benefit would have been much better if the money and resources had been availible in a free and fair competetive market.
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    Your right. I'm unpatriotic because im a PAKI!!!
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    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    Well in a way the soldier is making a calculation that benefits himself. He feels good about himself because hes being a patriot and he sees this as a good thing, so he does it. Im saying he should feel good about himself because he knows from looking at the situation that he is doing what he personally thinks is the right thing not just blindly following his government for patriotism's sake.
    Firstly, I doubt that soldiers often feel good about themselves when they are killing people, they probably feel that they are fulfilling their duty. Secondly, you don't generally sign up for individual wars that you believe in and then leave when it's done. We constantly have armed forces in peacetime, and we need those. The only people who would sign up to the armed forces, not knowing what future war they will be sent into, or what it's motivations are, are people who believe in fighting for their country no matter what - i.e. massive patriots. Without people like these we would not have the means to respond to sudden threats, like the Falkland Islands, or sending the SAS into the Iranian embassy, or sending ships to fight pirates, or whatever. Our country needs these people, and without them there would be an effect on you. My point is that if that if there were no patriots in a country, that country would suffer, and so patriotism shouldn't be dismissed by people who are benefiting from it.

    (Original post by PNEJOE)
    No, what leads to the most effective progress is a free market, patriotism if anything actually detracts from this. The rivalry for the space race sucked money and resources away from what the market would have used them for, therefore distorting the economy and making it less efficient. The space race has had VERY little actual benefit to man kind,. Satellites were not derived purely from the space race and the market would have produced them if the market demanded them. The benefit would have been much better if the money and resources had been availible in a free and fair competetive market.
    The development of satellites would be far too expensive for any commercial entity to pay for. It took a nation to get those resources. There is no doubt really that the space race massively accelerated mankind's expansion into space, which has had huge benefits for technology as well as research (e.g. Hubble telescope). I don't believe that a free market has proven itself to be the main driving force behind progression. I think that prize goes to war and international rivalry. Why is it that the areas of the world which have historically been most embroiled in such rivalries and wars have become the most advanced, whilst isolated civilisations which have had no threat to demand their advancement have remained backward. And where civilisations have had the superiority to conquer, they have brought those advancements with them - i.e. the Romans.
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    Some of the comments regarding superpowers are simply delusional. A superpower in the sense most people understand is a country which has a disproportionate sphere of influence that centres around the following areas: military, economy, politics, and culture.

    For example, while Germany and Japan have large economy's and are politically influential they are both limited in terms of their military, and I would argue that Germany has no real cultural power either. Again, both China and Russia are perceived to be something they are clearly not. The former has significant influence in all areas, but it is undermined by key components such as a poor navy, its geographical location, its unwillingness to engage politically, especially with regards to its troop commitment to the UN, and its ideological differences and poor humanitarian record. Russia is somewhat similar but its claims are weaker in every area.

    The major powers are France, the UK and US. And I would suggest that the two most powerful are the UK and US. Those suggesting that China will become all powerful, or that the US's influence is eroding are delusional. Most of the posters are clearly ignorant of their own history and how the world functions today, spouting contradictory, self-absorbed nonsense. I bet the majority dismissing patriotism advocate capitalism, failing to appreciate the irony that their very dissent actually advocates 'British patriotism'.
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    Yeah America is patriotic. Look at the mess that's in.
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    (Original post by x_dwin_ffeimys_x)
    true, but not true...
    maby suicide bommers do it not just beause of love for ones country, but other things, like brain washed, money, threats...to be honest theya re so wierd they have something missing in their heads, because if they drop bombs don't they realise the mess they leave their country they onced "loved" in? The attacks on 9/11 left their country ina war, why would you do that out of devosion?
    afganistan didn't cause 911, in fact the taliban weren't even involved.

    al queada were the ones who claimed responsibility.

    not all muslim extremists are linked, however i believe the war in afghan has led the taliban into close ties with mr osama.
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    There are plenty of patriots on TSR. You're just looking in the wrong places.
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    (Original post by milkytea)
    In my opinion there are good things and bad things and bad things about Britain, I'm by no means a patriot, I'm left wing but I think some things about the country are good for example:
    -Strong character as a nation, funny aspects like commenting on the weather and tea drinking
    -Music and culture - especially punk
    -The stereotype of the "British gent" which is just cool.
    Does not compute.
 
 
 
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